Author Topic: Races & Cultures errata?  (Read 6385 times)

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Offline Phil

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Races & Cultures errata?
« on: June 02, 2008, 04:13:45 AM »
Can't seen to find an errata file for Races & Cultures, so does anyone know if the discrepancies between races in RMFRP and R&C are:

1. Intentional and replace the entries in RMFRP
2. Intentional and don't replace RMFRP per se but are for the Shadow World equivalent races
3. Unintentional (in which case, which should I reflect as canon in my RMFRP spreadsheet?! :) )

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2008, 08:33:42 AM »
Races & Cultures is a book that separates the Races from the Cultures, something that is not done in the core books.

This can and most likely did cause some differences. However, it is quite possible that some mistakes crept in and were not caught as well.  ;D

Unless you list them, we don't know and cannot determine. That books was published a couple of years ago, so I have no way of knowing which unless you list the items and I can then look at RMFRP and R&C and compare.  ;D

Offline Phil

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2008, 10:56:22 AM »
There's a couple I've noticed already about different PP progression and lack of -50 Swimming penalty for Dwarfs. I'll list them all once I've been through...

Offline Temujin

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2008, 11:43:56 PM »
Yes, there are quite a few discrepancies, and it gets even worse once you compare it with Races & Culture: Underground Races.

Offline Phil

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2008, 01:20:21 AM »
OK, here's my potential errata list for R&C. In terms of languages, there may be even more still:

RMFRP / R&C Discrepancies
  • Dwarf: RMFRP -50 Swimming, R&C None
  • Dwarf: Ess Prog RMFRP 03211, R&C 02111
  • High-Elf: Recovery RMFRP 3, R&C 1
  • Halfling: BD Prog RMFRP 06211, R&C 06543
  • Half-orc: Soul Departure RMFRP 6, R&C 1
  • Half-orc: Recovery RMFRP 0.75, R&C 1
  • High Man: Recovery RMFRP 0.75, R&C 0.7
  • Mixed Man: All Magic Resistances RMFRP 0, R&C -5
  • Mixed Man: Soul Departure RMFRP 11, R&C 10
  • Mixed Man: Recovery RMFRP 0.9, R&C 0.8
  • Common Orc: Languages RMFRP Orcish 8/2 Common 4/0, R&C Orcish 8/3, Common 5/2
  • Greater Orc: PP Prog RMFRP Chan 06543, Ess&Men 05322, R&C All 02111

Clarifications / Errata
  • Elven Psi resistance: Wood Elf has +50, Grey Elf has -5?
  • Hira?razhir have hill speech as starting lang but not as allowed adol development
  • Physical description and Life span of Greater Lugroki both read Lesser Lugroki
  • How does Quishadi innate spell casting work? How do you determine number of ?1-3 open Essence or Ment spell lists?? At what level can they cast? Should this be reflected in bonus adolescent spell lists rather than special ability as such? Same with ?at least 10 PP? ? that means at least 1 ranks in PPdev
  • Quishadi have Urloc as starting lang but not allowed adol
  • Quishadi have Sea Speech 10/10 as allowed adol dev, and then it says afterwads ?the quishadi live in coastal areas, so may add Sea-speech (S6/W6) by virtue of their proximity? ? Perhaps errata, this sentence should be in Starting langs?

Have to say, I'm less than impressed. A lot of these are simple things that really should have been picked up and, if the change is intentional, stated as such. There's also no Talent Point levels for any of the new races, or indeed any indication that these races have been built using system set out in GM Law.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2008, 07:41:21 AM »
Figures you would post this morning...  ;D My work machine is down (bad fan on the power supply, so the machine was overheating and locking up) so I don't have access to the product at the moment. I'll be going to get a replacement this morning.

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Have to say, I'm less than impressed. A lot of these are simple things that really should have been picked up and, if the change is intentional, stated as such. There's also no Talent Point levels for any of the new races, or indeed any indication that these races have been built using system set out in GM Law.

1) RMFRP / R&C Discrepancies - Consider RMFRP to be correct on these. This manuscript was done during a time when we were having some major issues regarding Word and Pagemaker, with things reverting to earlier manuscript versions unintentionally. The Items you listed in that bullet list likely were cause by that.

You also need to understand that numbers and data were checked prior to this revision problem happening. And because of ICE's extremely small siize, usually was not checked again afterwards (during the pagemaking/final proofing -- Something that has long since changed in our processes). So you have my apologies for those errors.

2) Talent Point Levels -- Talent Points are an option created by the old ICE and one that the new ICE does not give a lot of thought to. We should likely have done so, but didn't. So my apologies for that as well.

3) No indication that the races were built by GM Law guidelines - Simply put, they weren't. All of the races in R&C are races that existed and were statted out before GM Law, and before Talent Law before it (were that system was originally introduced). they came from either the RMFRP core book, the Shadow World Master Atlas, or Creatures & Monsters.

Clarifications / Errata   

1) Elven Psi Resistance -- Quite likely that should be +5, not +50.   

2) Hira'razhir hill speech - If it is given as a starting language, you can easily allow it. Don't let what is printed be considered the only thing that is allowed. If you think something is wrong, change it!

3) Greater Lugroki says "Lesser Lugroki" -- this is one of those revision instances that I mentioned above. A little cut-n-paste had been used, with the result then being changed to read what it should. And during pagemaking it reverted back. As I said above, we now have processes in place to try and keep this from happening again.

4) Innate Spell Casting -- To determine what 3 lists, either you choose, or you roll randomly. 1d6 divided by 2 gives you 1-3 (note different types of rolls are described in the front of RMFRP, and not explained again). If you to determine which 1-3 lists in a random fashion, just roll a d10. There are 10 Open lists in each realm, so a 1d10 roll done as many times as required would work just fine.

The RMC C&T goes into more detail regarding Innate spell casting, and I am not going to repeat it here, but I will give a few quick and dirty guidelines that you can use....
  • It knows the list to its level -- no DPs need to be spent, period. For casting bonus, treat it as if it has a number of ranks equal to its level.
  • PP -- give it a base of 10 PP, and then give it at least 1 PP for each level it has above first. If it is exceptional (i.e. has a realm stat that is higher than 90-92 or so), then give it 2 or even 3 PP per level. -- no ranks in PPD required. These are innate, not learned.

5) Quishadi and Urloc language -- Again, consider it nothing more than an oversight and allow for adolescenting training in the language.

6) Quisshadi and Sea Speech -- there is no conflict here. The 10/10 represents the maximum levels that may be learned during adol. The 6/6 represents the starting point. Granted, it is quite possible that it isn't as clear as it should be.

Offline Phil

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2008, 07:56:24 AM »
Thanks Rasyr, do appreciate the reply. And I feel your pain re: document revisions! Couple of quick comments in response....

2) Talent Point Levels -- Talent Points are an option created by the old ICE and one that the new ICE does not give a lot of thought to. We should likely have done so, but didn't. So my apologies for that as well.
Fair enough, but better IMHO to be upfront about this rather than hide through omission :D (adding the smiley to be quite quite clear that I'm not being ticky about it!)


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2) Hira'razhir hill speech - If it is given as a starting language, you can easily allow it. Don't let what is printed be considered the only thing that is allowed. If you think something is wrong, change it!
Ooh, you know how to hit a nerve dontcha?! ;)

>>Rant Mode: On
I know I can change it! It's my game, I'll change what I like, so long as there are no ICE Police stationed locally. But that's not really the point! I want to know what the "canonical" view is for 3 main reasons:

1. I like to think that game designers have half a mind as to game balance when they send products out. Pre-balanced products save me at least part of a headache in evaluating how a given supplement or rule will fit into my game.

2. Players are awkward cusses, and anytime something can be spelled out in a book that I can roll up and thump them with, rather than invoking the GM Credo "It's my game, so there!", the better.

3. (and most pertinent to my current position) It's really hard to pull together character generation utilities when it's difficult to pinpoint what the official ruling on a matter is - yes, it's one thing to house-rule it, but it'd be nice when sharing my unlikely-ever-to-be-completed spreadsheet with the world to be able to say "yup, thems the rules"

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4) Innate Spell Casting -- To determine what 3 lists, either you choose, or you roll randomly. 1d6 divided by 2 gives you 1-3 (note different types of rolls are described in the front of RMFRP, and not explained again).
OK, I know you're being helpful here, but my-oh-my how patronising does that read :D What's a d6 again? ;)

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The RMC C&T goes into more detail regarding Innate spell casting, and I am not going to repeat it here, but I will give a few quick and dirty guidelines that you can use....
  • It knows the list to its level -- no DPs need to be spent, period. For casting bonus, treat it as if it has a number of ranks equal to its level.
  • PP -- give it a base of 10 PP, and then give it at least 1 PP for each level it has above first. If it is exceptional (i.e. has a realm stat that is higher than 90-92 or so), then give it 2 or even 3 PP per level. -- no ranks in PPD required. These are innate, not learned.
But this race is now available for PCs, so how to go about this? 10 Innate PPs that are only for the Innate lists, plus Learned PPs that are only for Learned lists?

Fun n games on a monday morning :)

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2008, 08:14:12 AM »
Thanks Rasyr, do appreciate the reply. And I feel your pain re: document revisions! Couple of quick comments in response....

2) Talent Point Levels -- Talent Points are an option created by the old ICE and one that the new ICE does not give a lot of thought to. We should likely have done so, but didn't. So my apologies for that as well.
Fair enough, but better IMHO to be upfront about this rather than hide through omission :D (adding the smiley to be quite quite clear that I'm not being ticky about it!)

When I said "doesn't give a lot of thought to", I am referring to it being an option, and not a core element of the game. And thus it didn't cross our minds about including for them. In hindsight, we should have... oopsey...  ;D

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2) Hira'razhir hill speech - If it is given as a starting language, you can easily allow it. Don't let what is printed be considered the only thing that is allowed. If you think something is wrong, change it!
Ooh, you know how to hit a nerve dontcha?! ;)

>>Rant Mode: On
I know I can change it! It's my game, I'll change what I like, so long as there are no ICE Police stationed locally. But that's not really the point! I want to know what the "canonical" view is for 3 main reasons:

1. I like to think that game designers have half a mind as to game balance when they send products out. Pre-balanced products save me at least part of a headache in evaluating how a given supplement or rule will fit into my game.

2. Players are awkward cusses, and anytime something can be spelled out in a book that I can roll up and thump them with, rather than invoking the GM Credo "It's my game, so there!", the better.

3. (and most pertinent to my current position) It's really hard to pull together character generation utilities when it's difficult to pinpoint what the official ruling on a matter is - yes, it's one thing to house-rule it, but it'd be nice when sharing my unlikely-ever-to-be-completed spreadsheet with the world to be able to say "yup, thems the rules"

ICE does take balance into consideration (the old ICE had problems in doing that!!). However, that balance is balance as defined by us. We fully recognize that there are other gaming styles out there and that different groups WILL have a different idea of what is balanced.

You were also coming across as being one of those RAW (Rules As Written) folks, who insist that if it is written in a specific manner, that that is how it should be played. So, my apologies for striking one of your nerve points.

I can fully understand wanting to beat players about the head and shoulders sometimes.  ;D


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4) Innate Spell Casting -- To determine what 3 lists, either you choose, or you roll randomly. 1d6 divided by 2 gives you 1-3 (note different types of rolls are described in the front of RMFRP, and not explained again).
OK, I know you're being helpful here, but my-oh-my how patronising does that read :D What's a d6 again? ;)

I may have been (unintentionally -- after all, I am only human, despite the claims of some of the other forum members).  ;D 

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The RMC C&T goes into more detail regarding Innate spell casting, and I am not going to repeat it here, but I will give a few quick and dirty guidelines that you can use....
  • It knows the list to its level -- no DPs need to be spent, period. For casting bonus, treat it as if it has a number of ranks equal to its level.
  • PP -- give it a base of 10 PP, and then give it at least 1 PP for each level it has above first. If it is exceptional (i.e. has a realm stat that is higher than 90-92 or so), then give it 2 or even 3 PP per level. -- no ranks in PPD required. These are innate, not learned.
But this race is now available for PCs, so how to go about this? 10 Innate PPs that are only for the Innate lists, plus Learned PPs that are only for Learned lists?

Sorry -- Innate DPs are only supposed to be available for Innate spells. Also, if a character has an innate list and wants to buy ranks in the same spell list, the spell list is learned from level 1 up, regardless of how much is known through the Innate list (i.e. they are treated as being completely separate).

A character who knows a spell list to 20th level, and has the same list as an innate list to 10th level may not spend Innate PP to cast a any spell off that list above 10th level, even though he knows the list as spells to a higher level.

He may not use regular PP to cast Innate Spells either.


Offline Phil

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 08:38:26 AM »
You were also coming across as being one of those RAW (Rules As Written) folks, who insist that if it is written in a specific manner, that that is how it should be played. So, my apologies for striking one of your nerve points.
My turn for an oopsie. I did come across like that didn't I? Hmm, that'll teach me to only achieve Partial Success on the Internet Forum SM table....

And thanks for the heads-up on innate spell use. I now know to severely castigate my players should the phrase Quishadi so much as cross their lips.

(although it's interesting to compare people's replies to my previous post about hobby skills - that they generally don't restrict hobby development to the listed skills - to the stronger emphasis on hobby skills that R&C takes)

Offline Temujin

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 12:26:34 PM »
The RMC C&T goes into more detail regarding Innate spell casting, and I am not going to repeat it here, but I will give a few quick and dirty guidelines that you can use....
  • It knows the list to its level -- no DPs need to be spent, period. For casting bonus, treat it as if it has a number of ranks equal to its level.
  • PP -- give it a base of 10 PP, and then give it at least 1 PP for each level it has above first. If it is exceptional (i.e. has a realm stat that is higher than 90-92 or so), then give it 2 or even 3 PP per level. -- no ranks in PPD required. These are innate, not learned.

10 DP +1/level or more, depending on realm stat.  Could you give clear guidelines that doesn't require a GM to fling it everytime a realm stat is generated?  And are innate spell lists cast normally following the rules for the realm, etc. or is that akin to an innate ability used at will, but costing PP?

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2008, 03:11:58 PM »
RMSS Spell Law -- Page 249 -- Stat Bonus table gives PP per level based on stat -- for innate casters, the bottom end is +1 per level, regardless of the stat, but higher stats can give more.

That same table can be found on page 103 of the "Of Channeling/Essence/Mentalism" realm books.

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And are innate spell lists cast normally following the rules for the realm, etc. or is that akin to an innate ability used at will, but costing PP?

1) Casting time is level based, just like spells

2) No mods for armor or helms

3) No incantations (i.e. verbal components)

4) A gesture IS required, but it can be subtle

5) adders and multipliers do not affect innate PP

6) Innate spells are resolved in the same way as "normal" spells (directed attacks, RRs, etc..)

7) the source of the innate ability should determine what is rolled against and what the "realm" stat is -- (i.e. an Open Mentalism list is defined as Psi, so the GM declares that SD is realm stat and stat used for RRs; if defined as an innate magical ability, the GM decides to use the realm stat for the realm that the character belongs to; if Arcane, then stats and RRs as per Arcane, etc..).

8) There is NO overcasting for Innate. You must be of the proper level, and you must have enough PP.

I think that answers most of the basic questions (and Yes, I cribbed my responses from the RMC Notes on Innate abilities -- but my response does NOT contain every single bullet point -- nor did I intend it to -  these are just a few helpful guides, I would prefer you bought the book  :D).




Offline Temujin

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2008, 11:52:14 PM »
I think that answers most of the basic questions (and Yes, I cribbed my responses from the RMC Notes on Innate abilities -- but my response does NOT contain every single bullet point -- nor did I intend it to -  these are just a few helpful guides, I would prefer you bought the book  :D).

I'm sure you would :D and I'm sure the book is good, but I would prefer to play RMFRP with RMFRP material.  I'll look at other editions of Rolemaster when a new well-thought out edition comes out, as meshing different editions tends to be a mess in my experience.  Thanks for the reply, it finally makes the Quishadi race usable without a lot of GM headaches.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2008, 02:19:41 AM »
All of the races in R&C are races that existed and were statted out before GM Law, and before Talent Law before it (were that system was originally introduced). they came from either the RMFRP core book, the Shadow World Master Atlas, or Creatures & Monsters.

Actually that is not completly true. Gnomes for instance is not a Shadow World race, but have been given a very good treatment in the book Underground races. Unfortunately R&C does not build on that version but adds a totally different kind of gnome. Are you saying that this new gnome to make things worse were not made using race creation rules from GM law?

I suppose you could argue that the minimalistic coverage in Creatures & Monsters are more cannon than Underground races, but in practice I would say the net effect are that R&C are only barely compatible with anything else than Shadow World.
/Pa Staav

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 07:36:46 AM »
pastaav -- I am saying that the stats for the Gnome came from one of three sources (the Gnome most likely came from C&M, as C&R: UR could not be used as a basis for anything due to rights issues). And while R&R contains some Shadow World races, it was not and is not Shadow World book. Not every race in it will be compatible with Shadow World.

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I'll look at other editions of Rolemaster when a new well-thought out edition comes out, as meshing different editions tends to be a mess in my experience.

The notes on Innate spell users come from Creatures & Treasures, which is actually fully compatible with RMFRP. You would most likely have all of the creatures in the book, but the expanded notes are likely to be very worth it.  ;D

Offline Phil

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 07:55:57 AM »
The notes on Innate spell users come from Creatures & Treasures, which is actually fully compatible with RMFRP. You would most likely have all of the creatures in the book, but the expanded notes are likely to be very worth it.  ;D

Roll up, roll up, roll up! Getchya Creatures & Treasures here, last copy available, gettit while it's 'ot!

:D

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2008, 07:58:45 AM »
 :laugh1:

Offline Arioch

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2008, 08:22:33 AM »
The notes on Innate spell users come from Creatures & Treasures, which is actually fully compatible with RMFRP. You would most likely have all of the creatures in the book, but the expanded notes are likely to be very worth it.  ;D

It seems that many of the RMC core books (Spell law, C&M, ...) are packed with a lot of nice revised info compatible with RMFRP/SS. Would it be possible to put them into a .pdf, so that RMFRP fans could buy it without having to buy all RMC books?  :angel3:
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2008, 08:23:57 AM »
It seems that many of the RMC core books (Spell law, C&M, ...) are packed with a lot of nice revised info compatible with RMFRP/SS. Would it be possible to put them into a .pdf, so that RMFRP fans could buy it without having to buy all RMC books?  :angel3:

I will ask....

Offline Arioch

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2008, 08:34:59 AM »
Great!  :wave:
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Offline Temujin

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Re: Races & Cultures errata?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 09:56:19 AM »
Yeah, a PDF with RMFRP compatible clarifications and revisions might be worth looking into if one comes out.