Topic: Tec Cloaning and magic realm

[markc]

 Please bare with me for a second or two.

 If a person is cloaned by future technical means do they have the same magic realm as the person they were grown from? Or is it random? Or can they chose which realm of magic?

Thanks
MDC

[Fornitus]

 If its a good clone all the stats are the same. So, yes, beacuse stats partialy dictate what the PC has an inate conection with.
 However, if a Cleric is cloned, they may have the stats but the gaed could reject the clone as a follower.

[bottg]

I think it would depend.  A clone would have the same stats.  But assuming the memories and knowledge of the original were not also cloned, the clone itself would be 0xp, lvl 0, and would have to chose a profession, and thus a realm.  That may well be dictated by stats, but not necessarily.

[Joshua24601]

I would argue that Clones always have the same physical stats as their source....However..
Whether or not the mental stats are clones is more open to opinion... especially if the memories aren't cloned.

I can see the argument that mental stats (In, Em, SD, Re and Me) are representations of how genetically gifted one's mind is, however I don't entirely agree with it.  I think that the mental stats not only include the person's genetic affinity for a given stat, but they also factor in the upbringing of a character...
For example I doubt a person raised by a bow and arrow tribe in the deep African Jungles is going to have the Memory and Reasoning that someone raised in urban society.. and the counter might be true for Intuition...

In real life we can't divide our brains into stats and skills... that's a game mechanic..  so I think a GM should go with whatever will make him and his player happy..

Another note... Cloning is being proven not to work like sci-fi... The circumstances of the development of individuals (from fertilized egg all the way through adult-hood) seems to have a VERY dramatic effect on appearance and characteristics.  Here's an article..
http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/10/29/it%E2%80%99s-not-all-in-the-genes-ask-any-epigeneticist/

[Joshua24601]

Ha.. realized I didn't answer the question directly..
Given that choosing a class effects your stats, and a magical class requires a 90 in the realm stat, I'd say, if you allow the mental stats to shift they clone can do as they like.. However, if you force them to keep them the same, then the clone MUST have at least a 90 to have a different realm then it's source (assuming it's becoming a spell caster) if it's a non spell caster, then I'd have it go with whatever stats the highest..

[markc]

 Thanks All,

 I generally play that you do not have to have 90's in the recomended stats. Does your oponion change if you can have any stat score in any spot.

Thanks For the Article, I am going to have  to read it later because I have had too much cake and I am having trouble thinking strait right now.

MDC

[Phil]

A clone definitely wouldn't have the same stats as their originator, but they would follow similar trends. Genes may hold our potential, but the childhood and adolescent environment does far more to shape our actually skills and competencies.

I'd suggest you basically allow the clone to develop characteristics completely independently, so long as they don't exceed the originator's potential stats, and then ignore the usual RM chargen rules and give the clone identical potential stats to their originator.

[Balhirath]

Please bare with me for a second or two.

 If a person is cloaned by future technical means do they have the same magic realm as the person they were grown from? Or is it random? Or can they chose which realm of magic?

Thanks
MDC

As I see it, Realm is a choise depending on the training and natural affinity.
So a close can have exactly the same stats, but depending on the upbringing and envoiment, might make totally different choises regarding the furture.

[croakerdogboy]

I can see the argument that mental stats (In, Em, SD, Re and Me) are representations of how genetically gifted one's mind is, however I don't entirely agree with it.  I think that the mental stats not only include the person's genetic affinity for a given stat, but they also factor in the upbringing of a character...
For example I doubt a person raised by a bow and arrow tribe in the deep African Jungles is going to have the Memory and Reasoning that someone raised in urban society.. and the counter might be true for Intuition...

I myself see the potential stat as being what they are genetically able to achieve, with the current being what they truly do achieve. This means that the bow and arrow tribe guy will have the same potential as the guy in urban society, but not the same current.

I tend to disagree with the thought that a person brought up in an urban environment would have a higher memory and reasoning then the person in the jungle anyway.

[Phil]

I tend to disagree with the thought that a person brought up in an urban environment would have a higher memory and reasoning then the person in the jungle anyway.

However, an individual who had a formal academic education such as might be available in a City, involving learning liberal arts, oratory and engaging in philosophical debate might well have higher Re than someone whose upbringing was based on learning skills that keep you alive in the jungle (which in RM terms at least tend to be rather more In & Me biased)

[Balhirath]

I tend to disagree with the thought that a person brought up in an urban environment would have a higher memory and reasoning then the person in the jungle anyway.

However, an individual who had a formal academic education such as might be available in a City, involving learning liberal arts, oratory and engaging in philosophical debate might well have higher Re than someone whose upbringing was based on learning skills that keep you alive in the jungle (which in RM terms at least tend to be rather more In & Me biased)

ON the other hand most so-called 'primitive' civilisations have a great oral tradition for storytelling and that does require a great memory

[croakerdogboy]

However, an individual who had a formal academic education such as might be available in a City, involving learning liberal arts, oratory and engaging in philosophical debate might well have higher Re than someone whose upbringing was based on learning skills that keep you alive in the jungle (which in RM terms at least tend to be rather more In & Me biased)

To me reasoning is your ability to encounter new problems and to work through them. What you are describing is oratory skill, philosophy lore, etc.

To give a modern day example (pertinent to where I live), there are many people who do not finish high school, much less go to college. Their reasoning is not limited, it is their education that is limited. As a practical example, we have a  lot of loggers here. Their reasoning would be applied to their profession. So they will know to worry about timber from old home sites (for fear of old fences about chainsaw level), they would be able to tell you almost every type of tree in the forest. They can tell you what you need to eat to survive in this area. And the fact of the matter is that some of them may be well versed in a topic of history that interests them, be able to do quick monetary calculations in their head etc. And they would wonder at the reasoning of the MIT professor that starved to death lost in the woods here, or that tried to cut down a tree and dropped it on his car.

In other words, abilities do not dictate skills or education. They are just abilities.

[yammahoper]

Does invreased stimulation of an infant enhance its intelligence?  Will more or less physical activity as a youth mean higher or lower physical stats?

Perhaps the potentials will be the same, but the actual temps could range across the spectrum.

lynn

[croakerdogboy]

I do agree with that. I was focusing on the potential stat rather then the current.

[Joshua24601]

I myself see the potential stat as being what they are genetically able to achieve, with the current being what they truly do achieve. This means that the bow and arrow tribe guy will have the same potential as the guy in urban society, but not the same current.

I would be inclined to agree if stats went up based on usage.. (someone who's very physical but is never intellectual would have his physical stats go up each level but his mental stats would stagnate).. but they're not... On average, all stats go up each level, regardless of use.... The only way to limit stats is to limit their potentials.
The jungle tribesman might use reasoning a lot, however he would likely be reasoning much less complicated things then the urban man.  The urban man would have been taught things like skepticism, the scientific method and logic... he would have been educated on how to reason.  By definition this would increase his potential capabilities if he took advantage of them.  Likewise the jungle man would have been raised around animals and nature (In), and he would be able to interact with them much more easily.
Now the Urban man could learn to live in the jungle, as could the Jungle man live in the city... however based on their upbringing they both find it very hard....
However, if they did indeed switch places, their children would not find it nearly as hard as they did....thus it's not genetic.

Now it could be argued, quite successfully, that the difficulty in learning is from professions... a fighter learning a scientist's skill, a scientist learning a fighter's skill.. however since a profession can raise 2 stats to 90... that seems to demonstrate stats are altered by education and life experince.

In any case, these are all just game mechanics trying to model an extraordinarily more complicated system.  It's nearly impossible to divide our brains into skills, and mental capabilities... since very often learning skills increases those capabilities across the board.

Again I fall back to... it's GM and players call.  If you want to have a clone be identical (physical or mental) for story telling purposes, go with it... who cares if it's probably inaccurate.  All sorts of fun sci-fi stories have identical clones at their root.  If you don't want them to be identical, don't.  There's good arguments on either side, and it's balanced either way, so go with whatever way is the most fun and makes the story and game the most interesting.

[markc]

 I can say that IMO I think that a child who does more physical excersise would have a higher physical potential scores than a child who does not excersize as much. But that is just me.

 Also the 90's that teh game says put into a stat or you shoud have 90's in 2 stats. IMO it says that your "PC" is hero material so these "90's" are ment to reflect that and not saying that in a game world all normal people can not be fighters without 90's in these two stats. But that is just how I play my game. As well as all cops do not have the fighter professon or thief or rouge some are laymen. Also all wizards are not pure casters some are laymen and some are semi's and some are even pure-arms.

MDC 

[croakerdogboy]

that and not saying that in a game world all normal people can not be fighters without 90's in these two stats

I was wondering if anybody else did this. In my game NPC fighters can be average or below in all stats. I consider stats independent of profession. In the real world there are a lot of people doing jobs that they may not be best suited for.

[markc]

that and not saying that in a game world all normal people can not be fighters without 90's in these two stats

I was wondering if anybody else did this. In my game NPC fighters can be average or below in all stats. I consider stats independent of profession. In the real world there are a lot of people doing jobs that they may not be best suited for.

 I can say that a lot of my players found this very ineresting during gaming in the bay area. Since moving to portland I have not had the chance to GM but when I do I think there are going to be a more eyes open when I run the game.
 Also in my game average people are 3rd to 8th level. I start PC's at 3rd pure arms to 5th pure spell casters. I also say that to have a job you must have to basic skill at around 55. So your average guard will have a weapon skill of 55 etc.
 
MDC