Topic: RMSS Black Ops

[broodhunter]

I am planning on running a Black Ops campaign, and have run across a question.  It states that melee attacks can be resolved using arms law.  Thats not a problem, but what armor types do you use for melee attacks against modern Armor Types (AT I through IV)?  Also, if any of you have seen the episode of future weapons that included the new armor refered to as Dragon Scale (I'm not kidding!) I am wondering how to handle that as a modern armor, as it can absorb full bursts from an AK-47 at less than 20 feet, which defys everything I know of modern body armor.  I was thinking along the lines of rating it as a Class IV armor, but decreasing the ME chart of the weapon against it.  Any thoughts?

[RandalThor]

You might want to look into getting 10 Milion Ways to Die. It has numerous firearms charts (and other stuff) as well as the Armor Types I - IV. As for the Dragon Scale, I had heard that it was the best so far, but nothing about it being able to stop 7.62 mm rounds at such close ranges (or any ranges other than extreme)! For that you could just represent it having an additional DB bonus, that is usuazlly how the game handles superior armors.

[runequester]

Theres been a lot of mixed reviews and comments on Dragonskin / scale/whichever

Suffice to say that no military force in the world has actually adopted it, to my knowledge

[Warl]

for such a resistant Armour, I would give it a Decent DB bonus to reflect that.

But first Get 10 mil ways to die and find an armour type against a weapon you think represents well enough that AK and then decide what you think would be a decent adjustment.

[David Johansen]

The primitive weapons verses modern armours is a big hole in Black Ops.  Fortunately Space Master has a decent number of tables that plug the hole.

[yammahoper]

Ten Million ways to die has all the tables you want with columns for Black Ops armors.

For dragon skin, it could ignore weapons below a certain ME, reduce the ME of weapons, or reduce crits by II and 1/2 hits, etc.  A DB bonus always make armor more effective also.  There are lots of options.

lynn

[David Johansen]

I've always wished ICE would have done a universal character creation book to go with Ten Million Ways to Die and And a Ten Foot Pole.

[markc]

 I can say that I hate 10 MwtD.

 From the Black OP's note you can go to Firearms Law which has the chart for converting AT I to AT IV to arms law charts and back. I will see if I can put those note up on the boards or not. The table is alsi listed in SM:P, SM:P BL I believe.
 For Dragon Scale armor I wuld use it like kinetic armor in Space Master Privateers, which ignores crits. Or if ou think that is too powerful just drop all crits by a number depending on the ME of the weapon. ie -4 levels of crits for ME 1-5, which you would need a E crit to do an A crit. In this case the crit reduction is if the crit reduction reduces the crit below A then thier is not crit. 

MDC

[yammahoper]

...or ME reduction with reduced hits AND covered areas take ballistic impact crits, not puncture/shrapenel.

There are lots of choices.  Experiment.

lynn

[broodhunter]

Theres been a lot of mixed reviews and comments on Dragonskin / scale/whichever

Suffice to say that no military force in the world has actually adopted it, to my knowledge

From what I have read on several sites, including Defense Review, there seems to be a problem because a certain general has gone out of his way to block its adoption, which seems to be linked to his particular preference to the company that makes the current body armor, interceptor.  Pinnicle has a standing invitation for the other lab to do a side by side, live fire comparison, and they have never stepped up.  Defense Review was so critical as to use the word Treason in conjunction with that General....those are strong words for an independent observer.

[markc]

Theres been a lot of mixed reviews and comments on Dragonskin / scale/whichever

Suffice to say that no military force in the world has actually adopted it, to my knowledge

From what I have read on several sites, including Defense Review, there seems to be a problem because a certain general has gone out of his way to block its adoption, which seems to be linked to his particular preference to the company that makes the current body armor, interceptor.  Pinnicle has a standing invitation for the other lab to do a side by side, live fire comparison, and they have never stepped up.  Defense Review was so critical as to use the word Treason in conjunction with that General....those are strong words for an independent observer.

 I have heard the same thing as well as soem more tieing it to the current administartion. The excuse they gave was it would cost too much to change right now with the current deployed force and logistics.
 Still they have not said that you cannot buy the armor and wear it in the field. So from what I heard a number of troops and their families are pooling their money and buying Dragon Scale for the troops. IMO this is a good thing and a bad thing all in one.

 I also like the test Dragon Skin did on Future Weapons where they put a gernade under the armor and the gernade did not sufficiently penatrat the vest.

 BTW, thank you troops for serving in the armed forces.
MDC

[markc]

Broodhunter,
 I have found the info in SM:P Equipment Man. are you sure it is not in a errata file for Black OP's in ICE's download section? I have not checked the download section in quite a while but I thought it was there that I had orrigonaly get the info from.

 I am just waiting on some feedback from another mod and then I will have a answer for you on if I can post the info.

MDC

[markc]

 Here is the information I found.
 After about 10 min of looking in quite a few books I finally found it in SM:P Equipemtn Man. The info is in a chart but all I would provide is the following AT I= AT 9(+10), AT II= AT 10(+10), AT III=AT 11(+10) and AT IV= AT 12(+10) using the realistic approch.

 Now there are two ways of using the modern AT's with Arms Law and I gave you the realistic version. I also checked in the errata section and I did not find any info for Black OP's their so I would not go looking for it. Also in the past someone had been talking about making a errata sheet for Black OP's and I am suprised it is not up thier.

Hope that helps.
MDC

[Allen]

  Also, if any of you have seen the episode of future weapons that included the new armor refered to as Dragon Scale (I'm not kidding!) I am wondering how to handle that as a modern armor, as it can absorb full bursts from an AK-47 at less than 20 feet, which defys everything I know of modern body armor. 

ok, I'm waaaaaaaaaaaay late in posting/replying, but I just found the thread...

Yes the Dragon Scale can, from my understanding/reading/viewing, take a burts of autofire from an AK with out penetration.
HOWEVER, and there's always one of those aint there?
Without really giving the full answer away till the very end, think about this... there is a signifigant ammount of kenetic energy being transfered from the projectile to the impact site. that's for each bullet mind you. So when you are impacting multiple rounds in a fairly tight group, that is assuming that the one doing the shooting knows what he's doing, so that will multiple the amount of energy being transfered into the target.

Now then, when I was active duty we carried a .45 after long and heated discussion on the subject. the reaon being is that even if my target is armored, 2 shots to the chest is going to deliver such an impact and energy trnasfer that even with a trama plate, odds are that I can cause his heart to stop beating.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions from there and hope I havent fully shot my mouth off.

Cheers!

Allen

[kedrake]

You do really need weapons law to use Black Ops to best ability.  I have a copy (actually 2) that I'd be willing to sell for $10.00 (each) - I also have a copy of Black Ops that I would let go for $10.00 (or take all 3 for $25.00 plus shipping).

[croakerdogboy]

How about a copy of Sea Law you would be willing to let go for $10 ?

[yammahoper]

  Also, if any of you have seen the episode of future weapons that included the new armor refered to as Dragon Scale (I'm not kidding!) I am wondering how to handle that as a modern armor, as it can absorb full bursts from an AK-47 at less than 20 feet, which defys everything I know of modern body armor. 

ok, I'm waaaaaaaaaaaay late in posting/replying, but I just found the thread...

Yes the Dragon Scale can, from my understanding/reading/viewing, take a burts of autofire from an AK with out penetration.
HOWEVER, and there's always one of those aint there?
Without really giving the full answer away till the very end, think about this... there is a signifigant ammount of kenetic energy being transfered from the projectile to the impact site. that's for each bullet mind you. So when you are impacting multiple rounds in a fairly tight group, that is assuming that the one doing the shooting knows what he's doing, so that will multiple the amount of energy being transfered into the target.

Now then, when I was active duty we carried a .45 after long and heated discussion on the subject. the reaon being is that even if my target is armored, 2 shots to the chest is going to deliver such an impact and energy trnasfer that even with a trama plate, odds are that I can cause his heart to stop beating.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions from there and hope I havent fully shot my mouth off.

Cheers!

Allen

Yep, and thats why you can ignore hits but should still roll a balistic impact crit, for knockdown, broken bones, etc.

lynn

[Allen]

All:

It was suggested that this might be a good place to ask a question about modern - near future protectile weapons.
I'm preparing my own firearms catalog for a near future game I'm going to run using SM. I have Weapons Law: Firearms, however the largest caliber listed is ye olde .50 BMG.
So I'm looking for data/charts/tables for some odd rounds. If I can get something 'close' then I can go with that no problem. but... well it's the larger calibers that are throwing off my mojo.
To give you an idea of what I'm looking at, .50 cal is equal to 12.7mm (for the most part) so I need data for:
13.5mm
15mm
20mm Lathai
30mm Arnar
20, 30, and 40mm grenades
but wait! there's more!!!
20, 30, 45 and 65mm Rockets

so it's more along the lines of heavy weapons.
any suggestions?
even if it's not an ICE product?
puh-leeeeeeze?

[markc]

 Allen,
 Are you looking for damage done to people or to objects and vehicles? Some of these can be handeled by SM2 Armored Assault and Star Strike or SM:P Blaster Law and Vehicle Law.

 But you say you have WL:F I am not up on my 13.5 mm+ rounds but are they listed in the charts at the back of the book for other weapons? Also there is a table at the begining of WL:F for kinetic energy to ME table that should help. Also there are rules for gernades in varous books and I believe that there is also some errata in the Vault on them.

 The big one IMO is that for area affect weapons targets are only going to get a fraction of the overall damage potential, so may want to use a chart in WL:F but change the crits to adjust to the weapon.

 Also can you give me a brief listing of the book you have so I might be able to point you in a direction.

MDC

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Here is the information I found.
 After about 10 min of looking in quite a few books I finally found it in SM:P Equipemtn Man. The info is in a chart but all I would provide is the following AT I= AT 9(+10), AT II= AT 10(+10), AT III=AT 11(+10) and AT IV= AT 12(+10) using the realistic approch.

 Now there are two ways of using the modern AT's with Arms Law and I gave you the realistic version. I also checked in the errata section and I did not find any info for Black OP's their so I would not go looking for it. Also in the past someone had been talking about making a errata sheet for Black OP's and I am suprised it is not up thier.

Hope that helps.
MDC

Thanks for that. I was going to use AT 5, 6, 9, 10 respectively for types I, II, III, IV. ( I figured the lightweight ballistic cloth.. such as vest worn under clothes, wouldn't be as effective against weapons because of the coverage. I also wasn't planning on giving a DB bonus unless the specific area covered was hit...

There is an optional rule in WL:F that states you use AT 1 for all areas NOT covered, guess I would use that rule, though since you only generally know where the shot landed AFTER the critical is rolled it could add to complications. So I'm not entirely sure how to do that, apart from using a lesser AT and reducing crit results that hit the body....