Author Topic: H&S v. HB11  (Read 3989 times)

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Offline Jimbo

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H&S v. HB11
« on: March 13, 2008, 09:32:33 PM »
After a six or seven month break we are restarting our HARP game this Sunday.  I have been looking at the HB 11 combat system.  How does it compare with Hack and Slash for (1) speed of combat resolution and (2) deadliness?

Any other insight anyone has would be great.

Thanks

Offline Hawkwind

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Re: H&S v. HB11
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2008, 11:43:58 PM »
This has been covered several times before, so for a complete list of people's opinions you can do a search. However, my group's testing convinced us that HB 11 is no where near as deadly as H&S, and not as quick either.

Hawk

Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: H&S v. HB11
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2008, 08:13:23 AM »
I actually use Martial Law.
A military solution isn't the only answer, just one of the better ones.
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Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: H&S v. HB11
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2008, 09:45:08 AM »
IIRC, HB11's crit tables are not location specific and do not have quite the variety of flavor text that H&S has. Also, in HB11, weapon OB's are modified by the opponents armor...

It is my opinion, after playing with H&S, HB11, core rules, and Martial Law, that Martial Law is the best system for me and my group.
A military solution isn't the only answer, just one of the better ones.
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Offline wheelercub

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MERPmaster & more systems
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2008, 05:02:20 PM »
Hey Jimbo! I've been comparing the combat systems over the past few days and I actually like both the Martial Law system and the Rolemaster Express (RMX) system found in HB#11. I don't have much of an interest in the Hack & Slash system as it seems way too deadly and too abbreviated for me. I guess I like getting as much detail as possible as quickly as possible (I blame RPG video games).

Anyway, after reading all the available combat systems, there is actually two more that I can see. One that I call MERPmaster, and a Location Specific Rolemaster Express system or LSRMX (lol - god, I'm such a dork). Maybe it's been covered before, but I'm brand new to the HARP system but an old school RM and MERP pro. Here are the benefits that I can see so far the best current systems and my little MERPmaster System:

1) Martial Law (only one chart per damage type with five critical location columns; I love this new system and I'd give it 5/5 stars for its simplicity and brilliance):
  • Beside some varying combat factors, in short you pretty much roll the dice and add your OB vs their DB and if the number is above zero, you check the appropriate combat critical chart.
  • The second die in your percentile roll (or the "ones" die) determines which critical column you use (hands, feet, legs, chest, or head). The column you get also also adds a little extra excitement to the game because upper body and head areas can be particularly deadly.
  • There are some additional factors such as adding or subtracting additional damage, stuns, penalties, and blood loss depending on the armor type, but most of this is fairly simple to remember w/o the need to constantly look it up.
  • You can have players join in on the fun by giving them a copy of the Crit charts they use or the GM can manage the whole thing. In any case, the results are detailed and varied and you won't get bogged down having to look at multiple charts for each individual attack -- BRILLIANT!!!

2) Rolemaster Express (multiple simplified weapon damage charts plus one critical detail column for each damage type; I loved the weapon tables but I'm not a fan of abbreviated critical columns so it gets 3/5 stars):
  • My friends and I have already renamed this as the "MERP System" because it's pretty close if not exactly the same as the old school Middle Earth Role Playing combat and critical charts.
  • Two attack tables are referenced for each individual attack. The weapon damage table (1H-slash, 1H-crush, 2H, missiles, etc.) and a separate critical column to be referenced as needed.
  • This system allows for a greater variance on the damage of different weapon attack types while simplifying the critical process down to one column per damage type. There are different columns in the weapon table for the armor type you're attacking which determine the likelihood and level of a critical if you land one.
  • Pretty fast overall thanks to the simplified crits, but my friends all like the critical details because they make the combat both fun and memorable.

3) MERPmaster (multiple simplified weapon damage charts plus critical tables with 5 levels on each; I prefer the crits of RM over the simplified RMX crits so I would give this 4/5 stars):
  • While this is heading in the opposite direction than HARP's simplification, it was "our" simplified system back when we played Rolemaster. In essence, it's a combination of the RMX/MERP and Rolemaster systems.
  • The benefits of the RMX/MERP weapon charts are hard to deny and the detailed critical result of Rolemaster are super fun and memorable. So my group used to combine the two of them into our "MERPmaster" system.
  • The only difference from RMX is that you use the old Rolemaster critical tables (of which there are practically billions of them) instead of the simplified RMX critical columns.
  • RMX has a single column for each critical type with a bonus depending on the crit levels A thru E. Rolemaster has a whole chart for each critical type with separate columns for crit levels A thru E. Yaaaa!
  • RM Crit tables provide lots of detail and fun for your players while the RMX/MERP weapon tables keep the combat simpler than the old school Rolemaster tables (there was an entire chart with 20 armor columns for each and every individual weapon type).

4) RMX Attack Tables with Martial Law Crits (multiple simplified weapon damage charts plus 5 level critical tables from Martial Law; this actually may be the way to go 5/5 stars).
  • I was just thinking of this and it makes total sense especially if you don't have the old Rolemaster critical tables. It's similar to #3 listed above except you rename the Martial Law critical columns with A thru E (which kind of makes sense anyway) and wind up with the following...
  • Critical letter = Martial Law Column:
    • A = Hands and Arms
    • B = Legs and Feet
    • C = Abdomen and Groin
    • D = Chest and Back
    • E = Head and Neck
  • It should make for an exciting combination of the benefits of all the systems.

So that's my input. If you want to have one table for each player attack, stick with Martial Law. If you want weapon tables and simplified criticals, stick with the Rolemaster Express system. If you want a combination of the two and have the old Rolemaster charts, try MERPmaster. If you don't have the old Rolemaster critical tables, and you want to combine methods 1 and 2, then try RMX Attack Tables with Martial Law Crits (RMXATwMLC). LOL - Is there a better way to abbreviate that? Maybe ML+RMX?


Offline Aaron

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Re: H&S v. HB11
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2008, 02:32:28 AM »
This may be a little off topic, but still... To make more sense to called hits, i have thought of using H&S with both H&S Hit location mods to critical and ML Armor mods to critical. Because of ML armor mods, its sometimes good idea to try called hit to hit badly armored location, and H&S mods make using different armor in different locations sensible (Better to armor your neck and head good, unless you want to spend all fights stunned and bleeding like fountain).

Both crit mods are not depended on system, so they can be used with any system you like... I like H&S because of it's fastness and deadliness. Only drawback in it is, that it makes scaling elemental attacs spells up from tiny and using powers strike a bit useless... Mathematically it's only good idea to scale fire bolt up if you have total bonus(including any situational bonuses) over 100.
If any spell can be made into potion, how does fireball potion work when someone drinks it?:D

Offline munchy

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Re: H&S v. HB11
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2008, 01:48:51 PM »
I really love the Martial Law combat system as it is as fast as the core HARP system (or almost as fast) and has cool additional features like the hit locations and the damage adjustment rules, which really add to the combat system. However, it also contained its deadliness - REALLY NEAT, especially as a GM. ;D

I have to admit, however, that we decided not to use a system again that was too Rolemastery. We wanted to stay with ONE roll per attack and not too much chance in the critical decision - although this also has its advantaged as it encourages weaker characters to attack tougher ones as there is always a chance of a lucky crit after an attack.
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Offline Fidoric

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Re: H&S v. HB11
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2008, 03:59:47 PM »
OTOH, rolling only once create a direct relation between weapon skill (OB) and crits. A better OB does imply better crits whereas rolling twice allows to top the table and still roll a poor crit.
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Offline wheelercub

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Re: H&S v. HB11
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2008, 07:00:18 PM »
Yeah sometimes it's nice to have a second roll chance for an instant kill and it does make the game very exciting. Related, another thing my group wound up incorporating was unlimited open ended rolls on their initial attacks. It's an extremely rare occurrence, but very exciting nonetheless because we've occasionally seen rolls over 350 or more. When using the RMX/MERP attack tables, we followed these simple rules:

* When a total modified roll is over 150, the attack delivers maximum damage plus any carry over. To figure out the carry over, subtract 150 from the total roll and compare the chart. For example, using the Missile Attack table against Chain, a roll of 278 would do 25E + 19C (278-150=128, which is +19C).

* For each additional critical level (A thru E) above and beyond the normal E, you add +10 to the roll. So in the above example, the extra 128 over maximum translates to 44 damage with a bonus of +30 more to the E critical roll.

* Rolls over 300 can max out the damage multiple times and eventually add enough critical roll bonuses that the highest possible critical roll is guaranteed.

Sure it's unnecessary; but I have never met a player who didn't enjoy seeing how high he or she could get from multiple open ended rolls. And for that matter, why not reward them for their "legendary" attack roll?

Offline Fidoric

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Re: H&S v. HB11
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2008, 03:39:05 PM »
I cannot disagree with you. I for one love to play fighters and make very high rolls is a source of great joy  :D
For some reason, I find it far more enjoyable to roll very high with a sword than with a bolt of lightning. I don't know why, maybe some barbaric instinct.
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Offline Alwyn

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Re: H&S v. HB11
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2008, 08:50:21 AM »
I have been using the HB11 Condensed Combat Rules with the RM crit tables.  This has worked out fine and our group likes the varied crit results.
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Offline GMLovlie

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Re: H&S v. HB11
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 05:02:11 PM »
That is what I?m intending to do, once I get my campaign started.
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