Topic: Getting unstudied.

[Marc R]

Just a possability, but sometimes game balance mechanics get in the way of the logic. . .like is the "Study slot" an indication of a magical storage unit, or just a totally meta game mechanic to prevent casters from merely studying everyone they encounter on the off chance that they might later need it later. . .I can't really say, but if you lean toward the latter explaination, that it's just a mechanic to prevent abuse of the spell, then you could treat it as such. . . .If you need a logic tied to game mechanics, you could say the spell uses actual memory, but uses magic to make the actual memory perfect, and that the "slots" limit just represents a limit of how much a caster can do this "permenant imprint" to themselves, not representing a constant spell effect, but more akin to healing, a magical effect on self that makes a perfect imprint of the memory. Shrug. . .I'm at best a HARP noob, that's just the game mechanic in me speaking.

[mocking bird]

Shrug. . .I'm at best a HARP noob, that's just the game mechanic in me speaking.

Same here really.  But such opinions can be very inciteful as you don't have preconceived notions or assumptions to cloud the issue at hand.

[Fidoric]

I see it more of a magical 'snapshot' rather than full DNA scan.

I see it that way because even when you lose your body and become a spirit, you can be spoken to by a necromancer who has studied you before. So the spell do not make a 'snapshot' of your physical outcome but rather of your spirit/soul/aura   Can't guess better.

[mocking bird]

Don't have CoM on hand but in the Codex it is used for scrying purposes which is similar.  There seem to be two different aspects - physical copy and spiritual trace.

Even so with the physical aspects of studying, it still doesn't imply that if they physical aspect changes that your study will also change as there is no two-way communication between subject and target to 'update' your study.  Otherwise you could study a child and used changing ways over the years the illusion would grow old as well.

Imo the snapshot still holds.  For scrying and necromancy issues you are essentially using the 'study' as a fingerprint to trace who you are scrying or talking to.  If somehow you are able to change this aura (no idea how but GM's have a way of making that kind of stuff up) I would say that the study would no longer hold.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Well,
The first time one of my players figures out he has been the target of a Study spell (after something happens as a consequence of the spell), I am absolutely positive that character will seek out the "magical offender" and attempt to remove his/her head!

Nothing is better for getting out from being "studied" than removing the caster!

[Fidoric]

Don't have CoM on hand but in the Codex it is used for scrying purposes which is similar.  There seem to be two different aspects - physical copy and spiritual trace.

In fact, Ii think that the spells you use after the study are either physically or spiritually oriented. THe study spell by himself do not change from one use to the other.

Besides, I agree with Right Wing Wacko answer. If a caster bothers you, remove him rather that his spell. 

[mocking bird]

Couple of points....

1) Study Target -- in order for a target to have been studied, he must be in the presence of the caster of the spell. The caster has to be able to see him with his own eyes. And personally, I would rule that the caster can only Study a target within 20'-30' of himself (depending on how crowded, and other circumstances - possibly even less distance), otherwise he won't get enough detail to have the character properly studied. The spell targets the caster, and basically only works to allow the caster actually memorize physical form and mannerisms.

2) A spell like "Finding" requires a Mind Store spell be cast on the target (and it is a Utility spell, so cannot be cast on an unwilling target (the range is touch, not self like Study Target, so the target of Mind Store MUST be willing - though there is an option for use against unwilling targets, but that is VERY expensive).

Just to muddle up the issue a bit more.

Re-re-reading the study spell it is also a utility spell so therefore it can't be used against an unwilling target.  This does kind of make it unlikely to be used for nepharious needs - like impersonating someone to commit a crime. 

It really reminds me of the mark spell from the mythic or perhaps better the study patsy from the mageant which are passive spells meaning they work but and RR may be allowed to see if you are aware of the spell being cast on you.  The former more the spiritual side as you can track a marked target and do other nasty things (vengeance list).  The latter they physical side for leaving false evidence or better attacks (assassination mastery) which could be seen as spiritual as well.

However HARP doesn't have a passive spell-type in which case study target in order to be more useful would really need to be an attack spell perhaps with some serious RR penalties and if you fail by so much then you are unaware of the spell being cast upon you.  As a utility you have to be willing so you would know who studied you.  As an attack spell perhaps probaly so.

Or probably more simply add the 'unwilling target' scaling option (+12 PP) from mind store might be the less intrusive way to go.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Re-re-reading the study spell it is also a utility spell so therefore it can't be used against an unwilling target.  This does kind of make it unlikely to be used for nepharious needs - like impersonating someone to commit a crime.

Study is also a spell that ONLY affects the caster, so it being a Utility spell is not an issue at all. It is not cast ON the person studied, it does not touch the "studied person/place/thing" in any manner.

The spell allows for memorization of the target in the level of detail that is required for its use in other spells.

Think of the Study Target spell as being like a snapshot or photo. The target doesn't need to be aware of the picture being taken. The resulting "photo" could be considered to be a "special" memory" that never fades or blurs over time, it is so well burned into the memory. You could even postulate that this special memory might even have a "source tag" (or a special mnemonic) as it were, and that when casting the spell, the spell checks the number of source tags in memory and that is what determines if another can be added.

Freeing up a "slot" then equates to removing the source tag. The memory itself is still there, but it is now affected by the fading and blurring of time.

Another way to look at it would be that the spell takes the memory and put a non-magical post-hypnotic command around it, allowing it to be called up at will, in full detail. Removing a "target" then equates to removing that post-hypnotic command.

As for a person noticing, well the caster IS casting a spell, and that usually is noticeable.... 

Hope the above makes some sort of sense...

[mocking bird]

Think of the Study Target spell as being like a snapshot or photo. The target doesn't need to be aware of the picture being taken. The resulting "photo" could be considered to be a "special" memory" that never fades or blurs over time, it is so well burned into the memory. You could even postulate that this special memory might even have a "source tag" (or a special mnemonic) as it were, and that when casting the spell, the spell checks the number of source tags in memory and that is what determines if another can be added.

Yup - that is what I was going for.  This snapshot could be of the physical as well as spiritual depending on how it was used later.  Would an appropriate analogy be that you are not aware if you are the subject of a detect magic spell?  It is all about the caster's perceptions - nothing is taken from the subject so there is nothing to resist.

So this being the case, if the target studied were in discuise, under an illusion of some type or otherwise masked either magically or physically, would the study only copy what was perceived or the true aspect of the target?  I can see this under the various disguise spells but since the scrying spells work differently they would copy the aura.  In other words you could study a target at different times - once in disguise once without - and get different effects with a changing ways spell but if used for divinations or scrying you would get the same result as the study spell copied the aura and not the physical form.

[Fornitus]

 There are 2 types of "study" being discussed here and they probaly require 2 different soulitions.

 Study/Physical-This is the most common and target gets no RR since anyone can look at someone else. I only affects the caster as the Memory is kept in such a way the image wont fade. Any find/locate spell using this meathod seams like it is seaking a pattern. So, a drastic haircut might give a -5 to the casters chance of success and a proper Misfeel would give a -100 to the casters success.

 Study/Soul(essence)-This form seems like it would be verry hard to find and learn since almost anything dealing with "Soul" is generaly concitered a "DARK" art. Misfeel Mind/Appearance wont work on this one, but, Misfeel Soul of somekind should work. The target might also get somekind of RR against the original "Study" spell since the caster is efectivialy trying to get the targets "TRUE NAME" with such a spell. Definatily an attack.

 Of course, this is just how we have ruled things to work over a lot of years of playing odd characters. (Chip the Soul-Swapper,ect..)
 
 Rember, if there is confusion in the rules or it just dosent feel right in your group--"ALL RULES ARE OPTIONS"  Thats why we use a GM instead of a computer.

[Marc R]

the above makes "forget" seem like the way to get rid of the effect, short of removing the catser's head.

[mocking bird]

Study/Physical-This is the most common and target gets no RR since anyone can look at someone else. I only affects the caster as the Memory is kept in such a way the image wont fade. Any find/locate spell using this meathod seams like it is seaking a pattern. So, a drastic haircut might give a -5 to the casters chance of success and a proper Misfeel would give a -100 to the casters success.

I would say that scrying type spells would go off the soul side and not physical as the find/locate don't go off of a visual scan like a security cam but rather like a GPS sensor.

Study/Soul(essence)-This form seems like it would be verry hard to find and learn since almost anything dealing with "Soul" is generaly concitered a "DARK" art. Misfeel Mind/Appearance wont work on this one, but, Misfeel Soul of somekind should work. The target might also get somekind of RR against the original "Study" spell since the caster is efectivialy trying to get the targets "TRUE NAME" with such a spell. Definatily an attack.

Taking it to the 'true name' limit imo is a bit extreme as you still cannot gain any power over the target, rather only its location.  It also wouldn't be anytype of dark art as it is essentially making an observation, not taking a sample of.  Would a detection spell used to gague the power (level) of the subject also be looking at the true name of the target?  It isn't some type of voodoo or sympathetic magic where a picture can be used to cast spells through.

Misfeel does get a little iffy as it can alter the power/level or calling of the subject which does seem to be modifying the aura of the subject which does seem to be what the study target is studying.  In this case you may treat the target as unstudied as your 'description' is off.

Rember, if there is confusion in the rules or it just dosent feel right in your group--"ALL RULES ARE OPTIONS"  Thats why we use a GM instead of a computer.

Always but discussions like these can be most interesting with sometimes unexpected results.

[Fornitus]

 What is a True Name but a complete and exact description of the being?

 Maybe its just how it has evolved in our groups, but any Identification/Location that would work even if the target is polymorphed into a horse at the time is defanitaly NOT going off anything physical.

 Detecting/Identifying has always (in our sessions) been in the area of the Divine if doing anything with the Soul/Essence of the target. Wheather Holy or Unholy in origin.

 Wheather Scrying or casting a Location spell, either type (Physical or Soul) could be what the casters spell is seaking out. Depending on the specifications of the magic used.

 There was also something Verry powerful and Evil that happened beacuse of a Mind Store spell in a session long ago. I'll try to rember and post it if I can. Maybe thats where the idea of detecting Soul got aquated with getting part of the True Name.

[mocking bird]

What is a True Name but a complete and exact description of the being?

Might be talking about two different things then.  I was interpreting 'true name' where it can be used to summon and command a creature as well as its use can effectively drain the subject of all its power - as was done to Lady and Shapeshifter (? - one of the Taken) in the Black Company books.   Such things do not appear possible via HARP spells as a result of 'study'.

Maybe its just how it has evolved in our groups, but any Identification/Location that would work even if the target is polymorphed into a horse at the time is defanitaly NOT going off anything physical.

 Detecting/Identifying has always (in our sessions) been in the area of the Divine if doing anything with the Soul/Essence of the target. Wheather Holy or Unholy in origin.

No it is not going off of the physical.  But I am not understanding the reasoning behind detection and identifying being of divine in origin.  Are misfeels then also divine as they obscure the profession and power level, i.e. altering the soul/essence, of the target?  Is presence also divine in nature as it detects sentient beings?

You can study an object, location or spell.  What sort of effect does knowing the true name of a tree, belt or spell have?  I can where your reasoning comes from in that True Names can be very important in a setting - Earthdawn or the aforementioned Black Company books.  My point is that it goes far beyond what is actually in the books imo. 

There was also something Verry powerful and Evil that happened beacuse of a Mind Store spell in a session long ago. I'll try to rember and post it if I can. Maybe thats where the idea of detecting Soul got aquated with getting part of the True Name.

Mind Store also has the scaling option of being used on an unwilling target and this triggers an RR and is effectively a mental attack therefore imo a separate issue from study.

[jasonbrisbane]

Just weighing in on this debate.

Taking the photo analogy, I would rule Study Target to be a Photo/Physical Image study, not a Soul image.
Reasons: Spells used with Study target that I know of are Shapechanging spells, which at base value give you the physical form, then physical attacks, then special abilities (flying, etc).

To me such a spell should not be quite so powerful (or, moreso: it wasnt intended to be used/misused in such a way).
As a House rule, I would rule that such Detections would detect a Physical form, more like CIA Satelittes spotting you from space (but quicker). Doing a Shapechange would hide the user from the, but I would rule that you would have to change more than 50% of your person,.

i.e. if you thought  that someone had studied you, you could make your ears more rounded using a shapoechange ability and thus claim to be negating the Study....

Just my 2 tin bits

[Fornitus]

  Mocking Bird-Looking back over the various senarios and spell theory our group has evolved, I think the True Name thing came from Chip the Soul-Swapper sessions early in that scenario. I think I was looking for a better way to nab someone I had already possesed before. A bonus maybe. It probaly came up beacuse Chip only has Soul related spells as far as detections. No mental or physical detects in his bag of tricks.
 Anyway, the point was just that, IMHO, the Misfeel spells were being discounted as helpful in temporialy avoiding locate spells even though they specify that they are against mental or physical detect/locate powers. Without these spells being useful I havent found anything that is a defense against Locating/Finding.

 We do use True Name as you say in our sessions with demons and such, but humans are not extraplaner so dont suffer the problems such creatures get. We DO give a human a -25 to -50 to RR if the caster manages to know the humans True Name somehow. But thats only happened AGAINST NPC's that dealt in Deamons. (Got the Name from another Deamon Dealer)

[mocking bird]

Anyway, the point was just that, IMHO, the Misfeel spells were being discounted as helpful in temporialy avoiding locate spells even though they specify that they are against mental or physical detect/locate powers. Without these spells being useful I havent found anything that is a defense against Locating/Finding.

Misfeels would indeed muck up study spells as I mentioned earlier whether  they were in play when the study was cast or when in use later when a locate or scry is attempted.

Taking the photo analogy, I would rule Study Target to be a Photo/Physical Image study, not a Soul image.
Reasons: Spells used with Study target that I know of are Shapechanging spells, which at base value give you the physical form, then physical attacks, then special abilities (flying, etc).

It can also be used to locate the subject as well as use for scrying - Codex spells.  In this case I treat study as taking a psychic fingerprint rather than some soul copying.  With a fingerprint you can find a person but it doesn't give you any power over them.

As a House rule, I would rule that such Detections would detect a Physical form, more like CIA Satelittes spotting you from space (but quicker). Doing a Shapechange would hide the user from the, but I would rule that you would have to change more than 50% of your person,.

i.e. if you thought  that someone had studied you, you could make your ears more rounded using a shapoechange ability and thus claim to be negating the Study....

I don't think it would negate the study but rather make the study obsolete - like a high school picture.  Extrapolating on this the death of the target doesn't cancel a study as it can be cast on spells which can have very short lifespans.  Similarly if you cast it on a tree and the tree was cut down you could still change into that tree.

[Fidoric]

Taking the photo analogy, I would rule Study Target to be a Photo/Physical Image study, not a Soul image.
Reasons: Spells used with Study target that I know of are Shapechanging spells, which at base value give you the physical form, then physical attacks, then special abilities (flying, etc).

The Study spell is also used in conjunction with Spak with the dead. That's why I suppose it makes a kind of "Soul snapshot" or as Mocking Birds says, a "psychic fingerprint".

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The Study spell is also used in conjunction with Spak with the dead. That's why I suppose it makes a kind of "Soul snapshot" or as Mocking Birds says, a "psychic fingerprint".

Not really..... The way I read that (for Speak with Dead) is that the spirit's form is based on the physical form of the person when they were alive. The Speak with Dead spell takes that "physical" description and translates it into what is needed to allow for for communication.

[Fidoric]

I was assuming that spirits lose their substance and so, their form, when dying. I guess it is dependant on how the afterlife is considered in a setting and so, tied to the campaign specifics rather than the rules.

Besides, I find it amusing that such an seemingly inoffensive little spell like Study makes us write so much...