Topic: Combat Companion

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

All together now...."When do the new CharGen Excel Character sheets for RMC come out?"   

When somebody decides to make one.... 

[Arioch]

So? any thoughts yet?   

Really GREAT! 
I really liked it and I agree that this makes the MAC obsolete. I also love the fact that you can use almost all of the companion with RMFRP...
My players are looking forward to convert their characters to the new combat styles method (the SU of the party were really happy to learn that they can now shoot their bolt with style  ).
We also liked the armor-by-piece rules, but for now we're staying with the old tables since we love having a different table for each attack...

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Well, IF those tables in CC become popular, and there is a demand for them, then we can start considering whether or not to make tables for each individual weapon (easy to fit 2 to a page), and expand the critical tables out to full page, 5 column tables.

But we need the feedback from them before we can make such a decision...   

[Tarek]

I like, no love, many of the new rules, especially the new combat styles.

However, I need to do more reading and house ruling around the armour by piece rules because I hate the new combat tables. The fact that all weapons use the same table and there are no AT specific mods means that there is no reason ot just to pick the 'best' weapon (why use a cutlass when it is just a -10 sabre). Under the AL tables, the fact that different weapons had different effectiveness against different armour types meant that there was a real choice.

Also the fact that some weapons cap out at just 90 means that many players will start to hit maximum results over half the time by about level 5, resulting in much less variety.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

However, I need to do more reading and house ruling around the armour by piece rules because I hate the new combat tables. The fact that all weapons use the same table and there are no AT specific mods means that there is no reason ot just to pick the 'best' weapon (why use a cutlass when it is just a -10 sabre). Under the AL tables, the fact that different weapons had different effectiveness against different armour types meant that there was a real choice.

The new AbtP system is very different from the original armor system and it is something that will take getting used to.

Under the old system, each AT represents a specific suit of armor, and you get weapon variation on how it deals with that specific suit.

Under the AR system, each AR represents an overall level of protectiveness, NOT a specific suit of armor. And between AR and DB, you get a specific rating of protectiveness.

I think that it is important to keep that in mind. It is a major change from the way armor has been used/thought about in the past.

As for "picking the best" weapons. What weapons are available should, ideally, be determined by cultural and location aspects, not by those that do the most damage. Weapons are also often determined by the combat styles available as well.

You use the cutlass because that is what is available to you where you grew up, while the saber wasn't. But this is no different than the current system. In the table on page 23 of RMC Arms Law, more than half of the weapons (25 out of 46 entries) have identical modifiers across the board, making their modifications no different than the ones in the new system.

Additionally, you also get the same sort of choices being made with the Arms Law weapons. Why use a broadsword when you can use a Falchion, it does more damage across the board, and why not use a Dag instead, it does even more with the across the line bonus (to all ATs) that it receives. Maybe it is a little more apparent in the new combat tables, but those types of choices are still made... 

This may require a little more work on the part of the GM to set up, but other than that, you still have basically the same choices being made regardless. You have those who will choose weapons based on damage done, and those who will choose them based on character concept. How each system handles weapons makes little difference, other than to make it more noticeable overall. 

Also the fact that some weapons cap out at just 90 means that many players will start to hit maximum results over half the time by about level 5, resulting in much less variety.

This is a problem with any sort of condensed combat system... Which is why I said that if there is enough positive feedback... etc.. 

[PiXeL01]

I have been reading through the Spell Lists for the new professions and was wondering why the Champion doesnt have any Instantanious spells. Not even his Stun relief. Is it suppose to be this way? If so then he is the first to have a none instant stun relief spell afaik

[dutch206]

IMHo, that must be an oversight.  (I say that because "Stun Relief II" and "Stun Relief True" on the same spell list are instant spells.) 

[Arioch]

I thought of making a list of RMFRP skills which should be dropped if Combat Companion (CC?) rules for Style Creation are used:

Combat Manuevers
- 2 Weapon Fighting
- Weapon Style
- Reverse Stroke

MA Combat Manuevers
- Martial Arts Style

Special Attacks
- Brawling
- Disarm (Armed/Unarmed)
- Racial Attacks

Specila Defenses
- Adrenal Defense

Plus: all skills in all the Weapon, Martial Arts and Directed Spells categories

Is the list complete? Or have I missed something?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I have been reading through the Spell Lists for the new professions and was wondering why the Champion doesnt have any Instantanious spells. Not even his Stun relief. Is it suppose to be this way? If so then he is the first to have a none instant stun relief spell afaik

His stun relief spells are supposed to be instantaneous.... sigh... something else that nobody (including myself) caught during the proofing. It will be corrected for the final version.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Arioch -- I think that covers everything.

[Arioch]

If I choose the Natural Weapon Focus, what's the cost for choosing a Weapon Kata Option? Same as listed in the MA Options?
And what are the manuevers for Natural Weapons?

[Moriarty]

I am confused, to be honest. Where does this leave RMC Arms Law? I like new options as much as anyone, but wasn't Rolemaster Classic supposed to be a re-edited, reorganized version of the classic RM2 line? How does "combat styles" and a "complete change to the way armor works in Rolemaster" fit into that concept?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I am confused, to be honest. Where does this leave RMC Arms Law? I like new options as much as anyone, but wasn't Rolemaster Classic supposed to be a re-edited, reorganized version of the classic RM2 line? How does "combat styles" and a "complete change to the way armor works in Rolemaster" fit into that concept?

It almost sounds as if you are expecting ICE to replicate every book from the old RM2 line of products. If that is so, then I am sorry, but you have misunderstood a few things. The RM Classic core books were meant to be a re-editing, and reorganization of the RM2 core books. There was never any plan on redoing every single RM2 book in the RM2 product line, there are too many obstacles in the path to allow for something like that.

However, RM Classic, as a product line, does need to move forward. One of the reasons for RMC was to allow ICE to recapture that portion of its fanbase that never moved to RMSS/FRP. However, just doing the core books isn't enough. We also have expand the product line to continue to keep those individuals.

Eventually, the plan is to do a revision, and doing it in such a manner as to bring together the two fanbases into a single game and product line.

In the meantime, however, you can expect to see more products that eventually expand things, and give us a larger pool of options and rules.

As for RMC Arms Law... Well, there are a number of folks who don't like how it handles things (like the way the attack tables work), but there are also those who do. Combat Companion won't be for everybody. Not everybody will like everything in it. And that is quite okay.

The point is that we need to produce new products and explore new options. Combat Companion is the first book to do so. It was written in such a way to make most of it quite usable for RMSS/FRP as well. And the one section that isn't usable for RMSS/FRP will be made so in a future RMFRP product (currently in the works).

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

If I choose the Natural Weapon Focus, what's the cost for choosing a Weapon Kata Option? Same as listed in the MA Options?
And what are the manuevers for Natural Weapons?

Several different questions there....

Natural Weapon Focus -- this is for creating a Weapon Style based on using a Natural/Innate weapon. This has nothing to do with selecting a Natural/Innate weapon as part of a Martial Arts.

When creating a Martial Arts style, you have the option of adding a weapon kata or a natural weapon kata. When learning a MA style with a kata, the first weapon kata (or combination of weapons in a kata) is free with the style itself.

For example, a character learning the Double Sai style does not have to pay the DP cost for 2 Sai in order to use the style. He would have to pay the DP cost for 2 Jitte or 2 Tonfa if he wanted to add those combinations to his Double Sai style though.

It was expected that a MA style with a Natural/Innate weapon would have that weapon as its core kata weapon.

As for the sats, well the section on Page 70 regarding Innate/Natural Weapons takes care of explaining how to handle that. And this can also be used to determine the DP cost of adding a Natural Weapon to an existing style as an extra kata. It gives an example of how a GM determines that a character's claws should be treated as Daggers for determining kata stats. In addition to setting the required Tier(Rank) requirement, and Bonus Hits and Alternate Crit, it would also set the DP cost (i.e. a Claw would cost 7 DP per claw, require Tier II (rank 5) to use, do +4 Bonus hits with each attack, and do a slash or puncture critical of one severity less than the one rolled instead of the normal MA crit if the player wanted)

The Individual Maneuvers listed apply to the styles, not to the individual weapons, although some weapons may be inappropriate for some moves.

If the Natural Weapon is a kata for an MA style, it uses the MA Style Moves. If the Natural Weapon is the focus of a Weapon style, then it uses the moves for that weapon style (melee, thrown, or missile). It all depends on what is available to the style itself.

[Moriarty]

It almost sounds as if you are expecting ICE to replicate every book from the old RM2 line of products.

No that is not what I meant.

What I did assume, mistakenly it now seems, was that Rolemaster Classic was essentially a cleaned up version of RM2 core, and that any changes or additions made would be minor updates and clarifications to the existing core rules, and that any major changes (of the type that completely changes how armor works in Rolemaster) would be saved for a future revison/new version.

[Arioch]

If the Natural Weapon is a kata for an MA style, it uses the MA Style Moves. If the Natural Weapon is the focus of a Weapon style, then it uses the moves for that weapon style (melee, thrown, or missile). It all depends on what is available to the style itself.

OK, now it's clear. Thank you! 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

What I did assume, mistakenly it now seems, was that Rolemaster Classic was essentially a cleaned up version of RM2 core, and that any changes or additions made would be minor updates and clarifications to the existing core rules, and that any major changes (of the type that completely changes how armor works in Rolemaster) would be saved for a future revison/new version.

The rules in Combat Companion are Optional rules.  The core rules still exist. But, by putting options like this into expansion products like Combat Companion, that allows us to see how well they work and how well they are accepted. If they are widely accepted, that lets us know that we are on the right track. If they are not widely accepted, then no major harm because we can decide to not incorporate them into a future revision.

Yes, the AbtP rules change how armor works, and if you want to use AbtP, then you need to use the options, but nobody is forcing those options on anybody else.

 

[yammahoper]

Yes, the AbtP rules change how armor works, and if you want to use AbtP, then you need to use the options, but nobody is forcing those options on anybody else.

Until maybe after the revision

lynn

[Tarek]

But surely the complete change to combat is now going to make any release of adventures or settings incredibly complicated?

To release a RMC or RMFRP supplement now requires two (or even 3 or 4 if you include the new combat styles with old armour or new armour with old skills) completely different sets of stats.

Surely this will act to limit anything other than rules based releases, and looking at the 'Products I'd like to see' threads, the background material is what people are crying out for?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

But surely the complete change to combat is now going to make any release of adventures or settings incredibly complicated?

To release a RMC or RMFRP supplement now requires two (or even 3 or 4 if you include the new combat styles with old armour or new armour with old skills) completely different sets of stats.

Surely this will act to limit anything other than rules based releases, and looking at the 'Products I'd like to see' threads, the background material is what people are crying out for?

I think that perhaps you are reading more into it than we have. Combat Companion is a book of options. It is not replacing the existing rules. Future books will be written to the core rules, not to one or two specific options. Modules will be done to the core rules. Setting related products will be done to whatever rules are  established for the setting (i.e. the setting may include the use of some options just like RMX does). Rules expansions will be written to the core rules.

Now, it is possible that we may give some styles through our various periodical PDF products (like RMQ or EA), but those are small products filled with optional, unofficial material anyways, so it won't hurt to give additional material to go along these options, but not in full books.

Trying to support every single option would be quite a silly thing to do. Therefore, we stick to the core (or close to it) for our projects, and use the PDF periodicals to post any additional optional material to go along with those options from other products.

Until maybe after the revision

At which point we will be basically starting over with a new core, and then doing new books with new options, etc. But, that is still a few years away at least.

In the meantime, just enjoy the game.