Topic: More questions...

[islan]

Okay, I've had one test game so far, and it went over rather successfully.  We didn't get to try out much of the combat system, though, but still reading about it leaves me very confused, I'm afraid.  Here's my questions so far:

The Ambush skill.  Please correct me if I am wrong in this interpretation, but the benefits granted to someone sneaking up (Stalk/Hide) on a foe and using Ambush (as opposed to not using Ambush) are:  +20 (Foe unaware of attack) +ranks of Ambush to the attack roll, and no Damage Cap.  That is to say, none of these bonuses (including the initial +20) would not be granted unless the character was using Ambush.

Is there any real disadvantage between the different size shields that might want you to use a smaller shield?  All shields just seem to get the -5 to Initiative, but between the different shields it is only a matter of size and cost.  Or is this really all made up for by the Encumbrance of their weights?
I also wonder if I should only allow Shield DB's when an enemy is attacking either the front or side of the character that he holds the shield in.

Some of the Combat Actions I have some difficulty understanding.  Putting such things as Blade Slap, Fencing Slash, and Stave Jab for simply purposes of flavor, one I am particularly lost on is the Tumbling Attack.

The Tumbling Attack says "For this Maneuver, the foe uses either half the total bonus of his Quickness and Agility bonuses, or half his Acrobatics/Tumbling skill bonus, in an attempt to beat the Resistance Roll.  A successful roll allows the foe to attack the character with half of his OB."
So, in this description here, who is doing the Tumbling Attack, the character or the foe?  And if it is the character, what is the character rolling (obviously Tumbling, but it isn't stated)?  And what happens if the foe fails his roll, he gets to attack with his full OB?  Would you not then want your foe to always succeed on his RR?  Please give me some clarification.

[kasalin]

... Is there any real disadvantage between the different size shields that might want you to use a smaller shield?  All shields just seem to get the -5 to Initiative, but between the different shields it is only a matter of size and cost.  Or is this really all made up for by the Encumbrance of their weights?  I also wonder if I should only allow Shield DB's when an enemy is attacking either the front or side of the character that he holds the shield in...

I think shield DB's are only good for the opponent a PC is actively engaged with or if there is an attack on the shield side.  I can't find the reference in the book for this though. 

As for the size of the shield, the differences in protection value and encumberance seem to be the main differenciators. I would think you would choose a shield based on the character concept.  Your tank fighter may want the larger shield while a character based on quickness would choose the smaller options.

[Aaron]

I really don't think you can sneak or ambush an foe from front, so you would get +15 from flank and +20 from back attack, to total of +35 (yes, they are cumulative. Don't ask me. i don't know why either), and +20 from suprise attack. And you get +20 from suprise without using ambush. You don't need to be trained assassin to do suprise attacks:)

As already said, smaller shields have less weight and less DB. Also there is one talent in ML which requires buckler or no shield at all.

Not only for flavor... in confined space you can't do normal attacks with staff, so you have to jab. And trying to pierce skeleton is pretty useless, so there is fencing slash. In ML there is pommel bash, usefull if foe has gotten too close. Of course GM rules what is too confined space (there are rules for that in battlemaster), if some foes are immune to some attacks (skeletons to piercing) or if someone is too close to be attacked normally (rules for that too in battlemaster).

Tumbling attack is only an counter to hold at bay-combat manouver. Charater makes manouver roll with his weapon skill using RR-colum. Foe then has three possibilities to try to escape: beat aside the weapon and attack, bupass the character, and tubling attack, in wihch the RR is used. Those three may not be used alone.

So say we have and human and orc. Human has an great sword with skill of +50, and he is trying to hold the orc at bay. He rolls 50, and the RR colum says 110. Orc has an club with bonus of 60, and acrobatics of skill 30. If the orc tries tumbling attac, he uses bonus of +15 (half acrobatics). If he succeeds the RR (rolls at least 95, as 95+15=110), he may attack the human with OB of 30 (60/2). If the orc fails the RR, he may not attack the human at all. (orc is kept away by human)

So the tubling attack is  only done to counter hold at bay. Hope that helps:)

[islan]

I really don't think you can sneak or ambush an foe from front, so you would get +15 from flank and +20 from back attack, to total of +35 (yes, they are cumulative. Don't ask me. i don't know why either), and +20 from suprise attack. And you get +20 from suprise without using ambush. You don't need to be trained assassin to do suprise attacks:)

Well it says under Ambush that, "If the roll fails, the enemy gets wise and becomes aware of the character; he's waiting for trouble and cannot be ambushed again."  I interpret this as saying that if anyone tries to get surprise (ie, "Foe unaware of attack") on someone else, they have to use Ambush; else, the same effects would apply, being that the enemy becomes aware of the character and cannot be ambushed again.

And I'm sorry for asking, not specifically for you but for everyone, why the heck is Flank and Rear cumulative? The descriptions don't overlap at all, it seems to me.

So the tubling attack is  only done to counter hold at bay. Hope that helps:)

Yes, that makes a lot more sense, didn't notice that it was listed under Hold at Bay.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Okay, I've had one test game so far, and it went over rather successfully.  We didn't get to try out much of the combat system, though, but still reading about it leaves me very confused, I'm afraid.  Here's my questions so far:

Will try to answer.. 

The Ambush skill.  Please correct me if I am wrong in this interpretation, but the benefits granted to someone sneaking up (Stalk/Hide) on a foe and using Ambush (as opposed to not using Ambush) are:  +20 (Foe unaware of attack) +ranks of Ambush to the attack roll, and no Damage Cap.  That is to say, none of these bonuses (including the initial +20) would not be granted unless the character was using Ambush.

Couple of points here....
1) Other than the bonuses that apply from the skill itself, all other bonuses can be gained at any other time, so long as the conditions are right. This means that the "Foe unaware of attack" bonus and positional bonuses, etc. will all work outside of the use of this skill, IF the conditions are right.

2) The ambush ranks (as a bonus) is NOT added to the attack roll. The character using ambush must first see if their attack hits or not. If it does, then the number of ranks in Ambush is added in (while determining damage).

For example, Rawrg has 10 ranks in Ambush. He sneaks up behind a guard and successfully makes an Ambush maneuver, with all of hit bonuses (NOT including the number of ranks he has in Ambush) , Rawrg has a total OB of 75 (he is trying to use his dagger, which he isn't very good with (nobody said Rawrg was smart, just stealthy)). Due to various reasons, the guard has a very high DB (i.e. he is wearing Plate and has magical protections as well for a DB of 100).

Rawrg rolls a 35, giving him a total of 110, this beats the guard's DB of 100 by 10 points, so Rawrg's attack roll is a 10, a hit. Now, that we know that Rawrg hit, Rawrg adds in the 10 from his Ambush ranks giving a total of 20 when looking up the damage on the crit table. If Rawrg had rolled better, he could have ignored the damage caps of the dagger...

That's what Rawrg gets for trying to take out a guy in glowing plate mail  with a dagger....

Is there any real disadvantage between the different size shields that might want you to use a smaller shield?  All shields just seem to get the -5 to Initiative, but between the different shields it is only a matter of size and cost.  Or is this really all made up for by the Encumbrance of their weights?
I also wonder if I should only allow Shield DB's when an enemy is attacking either the front or side of the character that he holds the shield in.

There is the weight of the shield, which does count against encumbrance, and there is also the bonus that it supplies to DB.

As for Shield Usage, please remember that combat is not static and that the combatants are supposed to be moving and ducking and dodging and so forth.

Now, I can see limiting the shield bonus like you are thinking about for a character without the Shield Training talent, but not for one who has Shield Training. However, I could see limiting the bonus from the shield to only 2 sides of a hex each round, but allowing one with shield training to say which two sides those are...

Some of the Combat Actions I have some difficulty understanding.  Putting such things as Blade Slap, Fencing Slash, and Stave Jab for simply purposes of flavor, one I am particularly lost on is the Tumbling Attack.

Tumbling Attack isn't  a true Combat Action. It is one of the possible counters/responses to the Hold at Bay maneuver.

The Tumbling Attack says "For this Maneuver, the foe uses either half the total bonus of his Quickness and Agility bonuses, or half his Acrobatics/Tumbling skill bonus, in an attempt to beat the Resistance Roll.  A successful roll allows the foe to attack the character with half of his OB."
So, in this description here, who is doing the Tumbling Attack, the character or the foe?  And if it is the character, what is the character rolling (obviously Tumbling, but it isn't stated)?  And what happens if the foe fails his roll, he gets to attack with his full OB?  Would you not then want your foe to always succeed on his RR?  Please give me some clarification.

The Tumbling attack is being performed by the character being Held-at-Bay. And if the roll is failed, the character doing the tumbling does not get to make an attack at all. Nor does he get past the person holding him at bay.

Don't think of it as a separate maneuver, this is a response, a reaction to another maneuver....

[Fidoric]

And I'm sorry for asking, not specifically for you but for everyone, why the heck is Flank and Rear cumulative? The descriptions don't overlap at all, it seems to me.

As I see it, the bonus to OB is linked to the reduced defensive capabilities of the target. It may habe been made a bonus to OB rather than a malus to DB to insure that you get a benefice even agaisnt 0 DB enemies. If the stacking bothers you you can consider that a flanking attack receives a +15 bonus while a rear attack is awarded +35 OB... No stacking, it's just normal bonus. COnsider that your enemy is less abale to respond to an attack from his flank than from the front and it becomes even worse when attacked from behind.

Second point, the interest to succeed in an ambush maneuver is to remain hidden until the moment you attack connect... this way, your foe cannot declare a sudden dodge or use a deflect spell. Also, if you kill him outright, he do not have the time to sound the alarm.

Hope that helps,
Fidoric

[islan]

Couple of points here....
1) Other than the bonuses that apply from the skill itself, all other bonuses can be gained at any other time, so long as the conditions are right. This means that the "Foe unaware of attack" bonus and positional bonuses, etc. will all work outside of the use of this skill, IF the conditions are right.

2) The ambush ranks (as a bonus) is NOT added to the attack roll. The character using ambush must first see if their attack hits or not. If it does, then the number of ranks in Ambush is added in (while determining damage).

For example, Rawrg has 10 ranks in Ambush. He sneaks up behind a guard and successfully makes an Ambush maneuver, with all of hit bonuses (NOT including the number of ranks he has in Ambush) , Rawrg has a total OB of 75 (he is trying to use his dagger, which he isn't very good with (nobody said Rawrg was smart, just stealthy)). Due to various reasons, the guard has a very high DB (i.e. he is wearing Plate and has magical protections as well for a DB of 100).

Rawrg rolls a 35, giving him a total of 110, this beats the guard's DB of 100 by 10 points, so Rawrg's attack roll is a 10, a hit. Now, that we know that Rawrg hit, Rawrg adds in the 10 from his Ambush ranks giving a total of 20 when looking up the damage on the crit table. If Rawrg had rolled better, he could have ignored the damage caps of the dagger...

That's what Rawrg gets for trying to take out a guy in glowing plate mail  with a dagger....

Okay, but doesn't that really sound like it makes the Ambush skill practically useless?  I mean, you can spend 20 DPs to get 10 ranks in Ambush, but all-in-all it does only two things:  give a +10 to damage and removes the Damage Cap.  While the second may be at least something, it really doesn't seem like a good investment.

[islan]

Also, if you just use Stalk/Hide, you have a much better chance of not being detected then if you had to do both Stalk/Hide plus an Ambush maneuver, because with the Ambush maneuver, if you, say, fumble, your entire attack fails, while with Stalk/Hide, even if you fail, you still get to attack, though you wont get the same bonuses.

[Winterknight]

Okay, but doesn't that really sound like it makes the Ambush skill practically useless?  I mean, you can spend 20 DPs to get 10 ranks in Ambush, but all-in-all it does only two things:  give a +10 to damage and removes the Damage Cap.  While the second may be at least something, it really doesn't seem like a good investment.

That's no small factor in standard HARP combat. You're talking about jumping size categories for damage purposes.  A medium weapon now becomes a large, effectively, with those 10 ranks in Ambush.  Looking at the damage tables, if you aren't at the uber-successful top two results, but in the ones just below those for the size, that's a big impact.

[Aaron]

Doesn't ambush say that the attack ignores ALL damage caps? I interpret that as not having damage cap. Small attack, like dagger, topping the charts with good roll. In opposite, power attack allows only to ignore damage cap by 10.

On second thought, it may be better to only ignore damace cap by ambush skills.. Then poeple have motive to take more ranks of ambush than just one.

[choc]

Tumbling Attack isn't  a true Combat Action. It is one of the possible counters/responses to the Hold at Bay maneuver.


The Tumbling attack is being performed by the character being Held-at-Bay. And if the roll is failed, the character doing the tumbling does not get to make an attack at all. Nor does he get past the person holding him at bay.

Don't think of it as a separate maneuver, this is a response, a reaction to another maneuver...

There are three ways to handle an Hold-At-Bay combat maneuver. (Beat aside the weapon and attack ? Bypass the character - Tumbling Attack) But how to handle if the foe doesn't care the pole-arm? What kind of attack will the foe get if he just move on to the defender? (the one use hold at bay)

[Aaron]

Hmm... must be stupid one:D Not trying to dodge the weapon, nor beating the weapon aside, just runnign straight to the sharp point.

Maybe some kind of charge against the foe, sing the distance the FOE moved isntead of the distance the attacker moved. No parry, as the foe is clearly just runnign to the weapon. Armor an qu bonuses apply, as foe may still somewhat try to not get hit. But still, pretty kamikaze foe..

[jasonbrisbane]

Just a few FYI's:

In our games we determined that using a Shield with Shield Training means that you can defend from all attacks that you know about. If you don't have Shield Training then you have to nominate the foe you are using the shield against.

Ambush ignores ALL Damage Caps.

We determined that some of the combat options which say "+10, Ignoring Weapon Damage Caps" really only give a + to the weapon Max Damage. So a Dagger (small) with -10, gets a bonus +10, effectively meaning that it can do a medium attack. We liked that options, rather than a blanket "ignore ALL Caps". Some of the descriptions of the attacks tend to be things like "Reduce foe to goo", and doing that inside two seconds with a dagger seems a little illogical, so we ruled like that. Everyones happy, especially when the same rules apply to the bad guy attacking them!

Like Rasyr says, "Its your game. if you dont like a rule, change it!".

Some of our group tend to argue that changing rules affects the game system but when they argue about how ambushing and weapon combat styles and using shields or not with small/medium/large weapons and damage caps, etc,. blah , blah affect the system,   we simply say that if that situation ever arises then we will deal with it. Since the situation they argue never comes up (they arent doing that action at that time as they have already declared for the round) then it never comes up. It works for us.

Just my 2cp worth.

Regards,
Jason Brisbane