Author Topic: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?  (Read 4647 times)

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Offline big_country_wi

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whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« on: January 30, 2008, 05:09:12 PM »
anyone please?

Offline Dark Mistress

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2008, 05:32:28 PM »
The simple answer is RMC is based on the orginal RM and RM2 and RMFRP is based on RMSS. They are the same basic system but they changed some stuff in RMSS. Like adding in categories, training packages, stat bonuses went from ranging from a -25 to +25 where you would add them and then divided by the number of stats(like a ST/AG would add those two and then divide by 2) to stats being -10 to +10 and you just add all 3 stat bonus together (ST/ST/AG all added to a final number).

These are a few of the ones I can think of off the top of my head real fast.

In short at least IMHO is they are the same basic system but with a lot of for the most part minor changes. Just enough that you have to convert stuff to use them together but close enough that the conversion is fairly simple.

I am sure others that are more up on both systems can give you a better and more detailed answer.

My group uses a mix of RMSS/FRP and RM2/RMC so I sometimes forget what all is different between them and which ones came from which system.
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Offline Dax

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2008, 05:46:38 PM »
The simple answer is (for me): The skill system.*
This includes weapons and magical skills.

With RMC you just have the skills you have learned (and the needed primaries) ones written on the character sheet.

A RMFRP-character sheet includes nearly every possible skill.
You have a sheet with many skills.
Some call this  :P others realistic - your choice.

edit:
* Some skill boni are the same as original RM, others are added from two different sources (Categories and Skill).
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 06:07:04 PM by Dax »
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Offline Setorn

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2008, 06:57:50 PM »
Full disclosure: I prefer RMC.

This question seems perennial.  A quick search of the forum will reveal other threads related to this topic.  They may help. 

As for RMC vs RMFRP, RMC is simpler and as mentioned above that is due mostly to RMFRP’s skill system it is much more detailed.  RMFRP is just more complicated and is not a game for new entrants to the RPG hobby.  RMC is easier for experienced gamers to adapt to and maybe at some time switch to RMFRP.  RMC has more options within the system and the GM may choose which options to use and which not.  RMC is conceptualized as more tool kit in orientation. 


In addition, RMC has a beginner game called RMX.  It is RMC simplified a little.  It uses a few option found in RMC, but is designed to be a single book game that can be slowly expanded into full RMC.  It is very economically priced as well.  See the ICE online bookstore for the pricing.  I think that the pdf’s cost $5.  It is an easy way to get an idea of how RMC runs.  RMFRP has no beginner gateway material. 


Both offer great flexibility.  When you understand the complex though consistent rules, themes and processes, both systems are extremely adaptable by player and GM alike.  For example, if you want armored Wizard Knights, RM can easily be adapted to present them even though they are not core to either RM product.
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Offline markc

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2008, 10:07:20 PM »
Disclosure: RMSS

 RMC is an updating and cleaning up some RM2 rules and from what I have heard new options on character creation and spells. The spells I have been told are basicly the same but they have added information on some of the vauge areas that reared thier head in the past few years.
 
1)IMO RM2 tended to break down about 10th level, by this I mean it was not linear. I arrived at this position by teating and by talking to RM2 players who have been playing since the begining of the game.
2) The skill system is a major difference fom RM2C to RMSS/FRP.
3) Single Stat bonues can have a bigger influence IMO in RMC than RMSS.
4) RMSS/FRP puts almost a limit on skill bonuses, after a specific point you nly get .5 bonus per rank. In RM2 and I think RMC you can have very high skill bonuses. For example some of the people described in the MERP books People of Middel Earth have the balrongs OB in the 400's and its DB in the high 190's, going from memory. In RMSS/FRP I think they would be about 1/2 that, but I would be guessing.
5) RMSS professions are viewed IMO as genetic templates when as in RM2 and I think C professions are viewed as your job. This might have changed in C but I an not sure but it did lead to many professions. In RMSS IMO you would need to creat a TP to do the same thing.
6) In RM2 you get bonus to skills on a per level basis in RMSS/FRP you get a higher skill bonus when you pick you profession but none per level. I think RMC has some optional rules that you can bypass the level bonus.

I also think thier is an article about the systems on Brent Knorrs website. The address should be listed in the vault and you should check it out.

Have fun.
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Offline ob1knorrb

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2008, 10:27:21 PM »
I keep meaning to do an article on RM2/RMC vs RMSS/RMFRP but I haven't done it yet.  I do have an article that covers most of the history of Rolemaster, but it is more general and I have a set of articles that does a detailed comparison of RMSS vs RMFRP.
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Offline markc

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2008, 01:31:07 AM »
I keep meaning to do an article on RM2/RMC vs RMSS/RMFRP but I haven't done it yet.  I do have an article that covers most of the history of Rolemaster, but it is more general and I have a set of articles that does a detailed comparison of RMSS vs RMFRP.
Brent,
 I give you site out so much I probably should have the address saved on a file somewhere.   

big-country-wi,
 What ever you decide I would read through Brents site, the forum posts and some outside posts before making your decision. As you might have noticed many people defend thier choice of which system is better with a lot of gusto, heart and soul. Some independant observations might help you a lot in makeing your decission.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline GoblynByte

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2008, 07:47:59 AM »
I have to agree with some of the other posts.  Most of the details are small but its the difference in skill system that is, for me, a make or break feature.  I don't really have any great qualms about the number of skills in RMFRP (though I have to admit there are a few that are just over the top) but, IMO, the skill catagory system needlessly lengthens the character creation process to almost intollerable proportions.  It can be a real headache trying to manage your skills without computer assistance.  Is the more complex skill system worth the effort?  Well, that's a question I've asked myself over and over and over again, but in the end I don't see too many important differences between the actual in-game mechanics of RMC and RMFRP to really worry about it once you get past character generation. 

So, if you like ultra detailed character creation that can take from 1 to 6 hours (depending on how familiar you are with the system), but results in knowing how well your character can panhandle, RMFRP is for you.  If you go with that, though, I would HIGHLY recomend using a computer spreadsheet to create characters.

If you like slightly more streamlined but less detailed character creation go with RMC.  You can always tweak the RMC system to be a bit more detailed, but it is a lot more difficult to tweak RMFRP to be less detailed.
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2008, 08:00:58 AM »
RMC is an updating and cleaning up some RM2 rules and from what I have heard new options on character creation and spells. The spells I have been told are basicly the same but they have added information on some of the vauge areas that reared thier head in the past few years.

The spells are basically the same. RMSS included a few new spells, IIRC, to fill in some gaps, but they kept the problematic and confusing spell type classifications. RMC kept the spells as they were in RM2, but changed the spell types to be more suitable for the spells and clarified how to resolve those types in a much better manner.

1)IMO RM2 tended to break down about 10th level, by this I mean it was not linear. I arrived at this position by teating and by talking to RM2 players who have been playing since the begining of the game.

If this were true, then RMSS would actually suffer from the same flaw as the core mechanics in both systems are the same.

However, RM2 had a tons of options, many of which people thought were core rules when they weren't, and it is possible that those options could of caused such a breakdown. In RM2, many of the options were not balanced against the core rules or other options, and so it is quite likely that they contributed to this breakdown.

In RMC, ICE is taking care to make sure that folks know what is and is not optional and to try and keep the options balanced as possible.

2) The skill system is a major difference fom RM2C to RMSS/FRP.

Yes, the skill system is one of the major differences. IMO, one of the mistakes of RMSS/FRP is that the costs are set on a per category basis, not a per skill basis. This required the old ICE to come up with a method of having better and worse costs on some skills than on others, and this led to the Occupational/Everyman/Restricted skill rules, which I feel are an over complication that was not required.

RMSS uses a tiered skill system (which is cool), but I also think that they went too far in trying to make too many skills overall (such as 4 skills required just for herbs). Then again, one of the principle designers of RMSS was heavy into skills, and in fact, I have been told that it was almost impossible to get into combat in one of his games (apparently he hated the RM combat system and never used it -- which would explain why it was the most untouched portion of the game when RM2 was revised into RMSS)

3) Single Stat bonues can have a bigger influence IMO in RMC than RMSS.

Not quite true. In RMC the single stat bonus is approximately 2.5 times larger than its comparable bonus in RMSS. However, in RMC, stats are averaged together while in RMSS they are added (and in RMSS, a single stat is often doubled or tripled when used alone).

4) RMSS/FRP puts almost a limit on skill bonuses, after a specific point you nly get .5 bonus per rank. In RM2 and I think RMC you can have very high skill bonuses. For example some of the people described in the MERP books People of Middel Earth have the balrongs OB in the 400's and its DB in the high 190's, going from memory. In RMSS/FRP I think they would be about 1/2 that, but I would be guessing.

The 0.5 per rank after so many ranks (30 usually) came from RM2 in the first place. And as for Middle Earth, that was just over powered to begin with, and yes, it did include some insanely high stats, but again, that was optional  RM2 rules not core rules. The end result being that RM2 with its options is NOT really the same as RMC.

Progression Rates
RM2/C --- 5/2/1/0.5
RMSSFRP --- 5/3/1/0.5

RMSS/FRP actually gives a larger bonus overall at higher levels.  ;D

5) RMSS professions are viewed IMO as genetic templates when as in RM2 and I think C professions are viewed as your job. This might have changed in C but I an not sure but it did lead to many professions. In RMSS IMO you would need to creat a TP to do the same thing.

In RMC, yes they are templates, not jobs (the Gift Companion that is being worked on has Occupational rules, and I think that they rock). By my reckoning, there are about 26 basic "professions" (see my RMSS article on Irregular Realms on The Guild Companion for a better idea of my thought processes here). Everything else is just minor variations on the basic theme.

6) In RM2 you get bonus to skills on a per level basis in RMSS/FRP you get a higher skill bonus when you pick you profession but none per level. I think RMC has some optional rules that you can bypass the level bonus.

In the core RMC rules, you only get bonuses to combat skills, nothing else. There are options included, and some of those options actually replicate the RMFRP method of bonuses.




Offline Marc R

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2008, 08:39:05 AM »
The only major variations that would explain any differential would be:

RoCo1 "Skill at Arms" or "Skill at Magic" style +25 stat bonuses (Add that to a 101 stat and you have a +55 stat bonus before you take racial mods into account.)

Level bonuses. . .where the RMSS static professional bonuses are set to 5th level RM2 level bonuses, RM2 bonuses peak at 20th level. . .So a +3 level bonus is +60 at 20th level.

Other than that, all factors lean in favor of a higher bonus with RMSS, when the stats were reduced to make them additive, they seem to have rounded up, I'll admit that 3 stats gives a higher chance of having a low stat in there, but 3 high stats in RMSS gives a higher bonus than 2 high stats in RM2.

Level bonus is the single largest factor. . .the stat BGOs were essentially duped as talents, so you'd be able to take them anyway.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2008, 02:20:30 PM »
Quote
.where the RMSS static professional bonuses are set to 5th level RM2 level bonuses

You have said this many time LM and it simply is not 100% accurate.  The bonuses are 20, 15, 10 and 5.  3x5 is not 20.  The 15, 10 and 5 seem to fit into your stated definition, but the 20, which every prof recieves in their main skill catagory(s) of expertise, shows the "freeze the bonuses at level 5" is not the intention or thought behind these bonuses.

RMFRP uses set bonuses, plain and simple, rather than bonuses based on level. 

Also, the per level bonus in RM2 was an optional rule, not a core.  The set profession bonuses are core rules in RMFRP.

I have no idea why, and I hope you understand this is just me being pendantic, but this lack of distinction drives me nuts. :P

lynn
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 03:05:59 PM by yammahoper »
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2008, 02:52:11 PM »
lynn, stop being pendantic..  ;D

Roughly speaking, the RMFRP bonuses are about 5th level equivalent of RM2 bonuses.

Also, the level bonuses were not an option in RM2, they were core, BUT they only applied to OB skills.

The Extended Level Bonuses (which affected other skills) from Rolemaster Companion II were an option....


Offline yammahoper

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2008, 03:05:42 PM »
pendantic...I have not seen the proper use of that word since Lou Reed came out with "New York."

Kudos ;)   :P

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline big_country_wi

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2008, 09:44:33 PM »
thank you very much everyone.  and the skill system in rmfrp isnt that bad... anyone ever played Hero system?  that game is so goddamned confusing... haha.

Offline Hawkwind

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2008, 11:04:24 PM »
I actually quite like the Hero system - I have found it to be the best system I have used for superheroic roleplaying. Its not as good for fantasy though.

Hawk

Offline twh

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2008, 08:21:10 AM »
I actually quite like the Hero system - I have found it to be the best system I have used for superheroic roleplaying. Its not as good for fantasy though.

Hawk
I also like HERO 5e, and I also have to agree that it's not easy to run Normals in the system.  HERO is good at telling you, after you have thrown someone through a door, how far they travel into the street before they hit the ground.  If you're a regular guy with an axe, just trying to get through the door, it's not so good.

I'm currently rewriting a previous campaign, run in HERO, for RMC.

Offline Marc R

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2008, 01:11:32 PM »
Hey Lynn.

My guestimation?

Completely pulled out of my "Ahem":

Editor "OK, set all RM2 Level bonuses to 5th level, make them static, and apply from Character Generation."

Quibbler "But the fighter combat bonus is +3 to level 20, then +1 per level after that, so really they have more combat bonus than the rogue, who just gets +3 to level 20!!!"

E "sigh. . .OK fine, set the fighter combat bonus to +20."

Q "But that's not fair, now the fighter gets more professional bonus total than anyone else!!!"

E "Sigh. .. OK fine, set everyones primary bonus to +20"

Now, it probably didn't actually happen that way. . .but I'll bet that the logic of the discussion followed something like that arc. I know I've seen enough round-n-round about how to differentiate fighter's +3* combat level bonus from the generic +3 combat level bonus all other arms professions get.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: whats the difference between rmc and rmfrp?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2008, 04:55:14 PM »
I think I was the quibbler ::)

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.