Topic: Herb skills

[Urbannen]

I am trying to create an animist, and I am having some issues with the skills governing herb use. 

I have found two skills, Herb Lore and Using Prepared Herbs, which seem to talk about herbs.  The Herbalist training package also gives some clues. 

Questions: 

-What skill do you use to "prepare" an herb?  Craft - Horticulture?  (This is one of the skills offered by the Herbalist training package.) 

-What happens if you fail your Using Prepared Herbs check?  Are the herbs wasted?

- Would the Instant Herbal Cures spell work the same as a successful Using Prepared Herbs skill check? 

-The Herb Lore spell from the Herb Mastery spell list seems to make the Herb Lore skill unnecessary, as long as the animist has spell points to spend.  Is that correct - casting Herb Lore is the same as getting an automatic success on an Herb Lore skill check? 

- Do you use Foraging to look for particular herbs if you don't have access to the Herb Finding spells? 

Comment: The Herbalist training package seems a little strange since it gives you Flora Lore instead of Herb Lore. 

[jeff]

Technical/Trade ? Vocational Prepare herbs is where the skill can be found

[Urbannen]

That skill is not listed in the Technical/Trade - Vocational section of RMFRP.

[yammahoper]

To prepare an herb, use a spell or the skill, prepare herbs.  Note, I now consider the skill Herb Lore to include the skill, prepare herbs, even though it does make sense someone might be a knowledgable herbologist and not a healer/herb preparer at all...just not in my game, unless a PC wanted to for some reason to do with character (the Sage who knows much but can do very little).

Horticulture is knowledge of how to grow things, flora lore is knowledge of plant life(by area/culture), something an Herbalist would likely know.  

There are secveral fashions/methods in which an herb can be prepared.  If you have HANDS OF THE HEALER, these ways are covered in wonderful detail...how to make a tincture, a salve, a compress of herbs, etc.  Depending on what process is being used (there is one process that leaches the essence from herbs to form a concentrated paste with solvents or alcohol, so failure here would likely destroy a dose or two), how many doses are wasted would vary, depending on type of failure/partial success/etc.  If the PC has 12 doses of herbs and gets 70%, the only 8 doses are gained from the initial 12.  I would recommend using the MM Table instead of the Static Mnv Table for resolving this skill.

An instant Herbal cure would effectively work the same as a successful skill check, or Absolute Success if you prefer.

I play the Herb Lore spell that way.  But only success, not absolute success.

When foraging for herbs, there are several methods.  First, note the climates the PC are familiar with.  In my game, all herbs outside those climates are at -30 on foraging and herb lore checks, above normal difficulty rating.  After noting all herbs that could be found in the area, I mak a skill check for foraging using the highest skill in the group with a +2 for each additional searcher.  A search takes 4 hours.  Areas that are well foraged already suffer a -30 or higher penalty (or a little lower, down to 0, if not foraged recently).  Remember that many locals know of the value of herbs and would be on the lookout for common healing herbs (any herb IMO light mnv or lower to find).  I then take the total skill and start subtracting difficulty mods...-10...-20...-30...etc, until I get below 100, when no more herbs are found.

Another involves the MM Table, but a bit more paperwork, and honestly, it's bed time so I aint typing it  

lynn

[markc]

 I do sort of like Yamma above but:
1) herb lore to know about the herb and its growing location.
2) Prepair Herb: I lump in with herb lore unless it is a big focus of my campain.
3) foraging: is use to fing the herb if you remember where to locate it. ie we are in a swamp I think we should look for a plant that looks like this AAAAAAA.
4) I have done away with use prepair herb skill. But if you have the Essence Comp it details how herbs are prepaired, what medium they are in, time they remain potant etc. I think thier is also a very good explanation in Hands of the Healer as said above if you can find it for sale or on the net.

 I use the spells as additions to the skills with the limit that you cannot get a bonus of more then double you skill. This is a house rule that works well unless you like instant knowledge that goes puff when the spell ends. I do not so I require some knowledge.

Note: Depending on your game and if your GM gives you the thumbs up I would design my own TP using Johanthan Dales spreed sheet located in the vault. It does not have the bonus items but I am sure you and your GM can come to an agreement.

MDC 

[Arioch]

IMHO all these herb skills only make the game confusing, so I would suggest to use only one or two of them (I use only Herb Lore to prepare/identify/use herbs and foraging to find them).
Having two separate skills for Using Herbs and Preparing them is just silly: how can someone be able to prepare a medical herb and then be unable to use what he prepared? 
The Flora Lore and Herb Lore distinction actually can make sense (as someone can know all the name of every plant but don't know their medical application), but I don't find this level of detail useful in game...

[vroomfogle]

I'm with Arioch and use one Herb skill taht includes knowledge, growing, preparing, using herbs....even considered wrapping up finding herbs with that as well.

[yammahoper]

I use flora lore to know about animated and magical plant creatures, such as ents, battle vines, tangle roots, etc.

Animal Lore is most used to know about special and weird beast, which fatasy games are full of.

lynn

[Urbannen]

Thanks for your responses.  Here is what I have gathered so far:

- I figured out that the Prepare Herbs skill was taken out of RMFRP.  I think the designers should have revised the Use Prepared Herbs skill to reflect this change. 

I'm not sure I agree that the Herb Lore spell can take the place of both the Herb Lore skill and the Use Prepared Herbs skill (and the Prepare Herbs skill if you're playing RMSS).

- I get the feeling that no one uses the Use Prepared Herbs skill.  Has anyone ever used this skill in a game?  What happened?

- Has anyone ever taken the Herbalist training package?  The starting herbs are nice, but are the skills useable?

Based on further thought and others' posting, here is my take on how one might use the herb skills and spells in RMFRP:

-To identify herbs: Herb Lore skill or Herb Lore spell
-To diagnose an herb for an ailment (when you've never used the herb before): Herb Lore skill, but not the Herb Lore spell
-To find herbs: Foraging skill or Herb Finding spells
-To grow herbs: Horticulture skill or Herb Production spells
-To prepare herbs: Use Prepared Herbs skill or Instant Herbal Remedy spells.  I think the Use Prepared Herbs skill should just be "Use Herbs".   
-To use/apply herbal remedies: Use Prepared Herbs skill or Herb Lore spell.

[yammahoper]

Sounds good to me.  Your players will certainly appreciate the effort and guidance.  Consistency is a must to a fair game.

I have had players take use prepared herbs.  We defined it as the knowledge of how to use already prepared herbs in first and second aid.  It was used by a mercenary PC who wanted to be familiar with healing herbs and certain combat enhancing herbs, but no real knowledge about herb production, were they grow, etc.

lynn

[markc]

Urbannen,
 I have played in a game where the skill use prepaired herb comes into play. It was a low powered game in which the GM was trying to get some hack and slashers to do some RP'ing and not combat'RP'ing. Most of the players did not take the GM at his word so they ended up dieing and were not asked to come back.
MDC
 

[Dark Schneider]

1) Herb lore: knowledge of where to find it and its effects.

2) Foraging: to search it. Herb finding spells in outdoors usually gives a % (GM discretion) depending spell range/area of searching, because there is much terrain to cover. How do you usually use it?.

3) Prepare herb: you should see it as pharmacy, it is the skill to create the medicine from herbs (you usually can't eat the herb directly). Further, the herbs need to combine with other substances to obtain the final medicine, and this skill gives you the knowledge (substances and their exact quantities) and ability to combine them.
But, there are really some herbs that don't need this skill, that are those are used in their raw form, there are some and you can identify them by their description.
Yes, if you fail the skill you waste the herbs, but only if FAILURE, for any 'mid success' you can try again with no waste. Herbs prices are obtained by combinning the difficulty and risk to find them, plus the wasted doses for prepare them, for that rare herbs are much expensive.

4) Use herbs: this skills is needed for those medicines that usually are used by medical personnel, I usually only requires to use this skill for herbs with difficulty 5+ that are used by 'application', and maybe some infusion if I determine that it has exact cooking time or must be combined with other substances, but usually not.

[markc]

 Another thought just came to me is many groups use the herbs as instant effects. But in one of the books it talks about how long it taks to prepair the herb for the best results. I have only used this rule for herb use a couple of times myself but it is layed out nicely either in the Hands of the Healer, GM Law [RMSS], ESS Comp [RMSS] or one of the RoCo's. I remember the discussion is very comlete and indepth but for your everyday gamming group it could be a bit much. I also rmember it game a basic experation date for the varous preperation methods and basic guidlines for herb use after the good date. {As a side not I seam to remember the PC's allways asking how long the beer was good for and making sure they cast the right spells on the kegs, barrels, skins and jugs so it would not spoil. It was a good time}
 For example one of the herbs cured 1-10 hits but it had to be made into a hot tea. So if the party wanted to get some hits back they had to set up camp or get the spell caster to create fire under the tea pot so people could get some hits back. Also if they did not use the tea within 30 min it was 1/2 effect and you could only use 1 dose within a 24 hour peroid.

 I think most games do not need that level of detail but IMO thier are some that enjoy it and need it to make thier campain world work. I have played in some gritty games where geting hurt was very bad and sometimes fatail to the point of sitting out for a month or two. And I have come to enjoy those types of games better than the hack and slash, my character is dead so I roll up a new one and the GM plots him in to the story.

MDC

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I would also allow use of Flora Lore to identify a herb as being a herb, though not for it's useage, past those of a common knowledge.

"Ah Garlic!" says one character...

"Great, we can use it against Vampires...or was that Werewolves" says another.

"No I think thats sunflowers you use against vampires..." says another helpfully.

Therefore, knowledge of what a herb looks like does not impart the relevent information in order to use it.

So, I'd say either Flora Lore or Herb lore can be used as a SM to provide bonuses to a subsequent Foraging check (which itself is modified by it's availability and rarity of the herbs in that region).

Herb Lore should also provide some knowledge (and bonuses) to any methods required to Prepare Herbs (getting the raw materials into a useable form).

The ability to actually use the herbs (aka Use Prepared Herbs) should be also modified by the result of Herb Lore SM.  

[Urbannen]

The use of situation modifiers on linked herbalism checks is not really in the rules as written, as far as I can tell, although they make sense for a DM to do. 

With the rules as written, you can know all about what an herb does and how to prepare and use it, but fail miserably when it comes time to actually preparing or using it. 

The more I think about it, but the more I think the Use Prepared Herbs skill is bogus.  Looking at the herbs listed in RMSS, they are all either brewed, ingested, or applied.  I don't see how it takes ranks in a skill in order to brew and drink tea, eat something, or rub a poultice on your skin.  I don't need skill ranks to follow a prescription. 

Take this example: Joe the Fighter has no ranks in Use Prepared Herbs.  He buys a prepared herb from an herbalist for the elimination of hits.  The herb is used by brewing.  The herbalist tells him to brew the mixture into a tea and drink it when he is in pain.  Joe bumps his head and so brews the tea in order to eliminate the hits.  Joe has a +19 to his roll: 2 ranks in Tech/Trade - General +4, 0 ranks in Use Prepared Herbs -15, no aplicable stat modifiers +0, +30 for a routine task = +19.  Joe has to roll a 92 in order to brew and drink tea successfully: a 9% chance.  If he had no ranks in Tech/Trade - General, he would have to have a high opened-ended roll to brew and drink tea. 

I really think that once an herb is prepared, then it should be considered ready for use.  It should be obvious by looking at the product what to do with it: brew, eat, or rub on.  I kind of think they should have gotten rid of Use Prepared Herb in RMFRP instead of Prepare Herb. 

[jeff]

You make a very good point Urbanman!

[Urbannen]

You know what, I was re-reading the description of Use Prepared Herbs.  It says: "This skill allows the user to properly apply herbs that have already been prepared for use." {Ag}

I think we can assume that this skill is only necessary for 'application'-type herbs. 

That makes a lot more sense than having it be necessary for 'brew' and 'ingest'-type herbs:  "Oh darn, I failed my roll.  I guess the herb missed my mouth."  On the other hand I can see how it might take skill to properly apply an herbal remedy to an injured part of the skin. 

And I finally found the Prepare Herbs skill entry in FRP Character Law.     

[rafmeister]

     Consider a tincture. It is an alcohol based herbal solution. It may be applied to the skin as a lotion, diluted with wine/water/rum and drunken, or applied as a compress. One application method may result in failure, and another in poisoning the patient! The skill roll is required for remembering the method, dilution ratio, etc.

     With that said, some one explaining the procedure should give a +30 to the skill roll!

[Urbannen]

I argue that turning the tincture into a watered solution for ingestion would still fall under the Prepare Herbs skill. 

If both ingested and brewed herbs require a successful Use Prepared Herbs roll to use, then they are useless for a wide range of characters.  My animist is a woodsman, and I noticed that even though woodsmen can take herbs instead of money as a background option, they don't get Use Prepared Herbs as a hobby skill option. 

What use is it to carry around herbs as a 1st level character when you only have a 5% chance of being able to use them? 

[markc]

Urbannen,
 If it is an easy task the get +60 so a score of 5 in the skill gives you 65+roll, so you only need a 46 to suceed.

 I am only guessing here but I think they wanted to make the "Herb Skills" reflect varous degrees of knowledge to a iron/bronze age person. They did not have temp. gauges, nitrogen preservation, air and water tight containers [to some degree but not like today] and any of the other things we take for grated today. IMO the skill roll is alomst a herb potency and a prepair/use check. But I agree that not all games need this level of detail. If you are playing a video game type game simple have them be instant use instant effect but at the other end of the spectrium the PC would need some or all the skills depending on the GM setting and campain.
 An option here is to simple have the PC roll d100 and if it fails 01-05, then the herb is bad or they prepaired it wrong. Otherwise give them fulll effect. Use the more complete rulings if you want to treet herbs as magic items or magically enhanced items in which you need a specific ritual to benifit from its effect. If your fail the ritual then the magic inside the herb fails to materialize do to any number of reasons. This would also be a good area for a nature god/godess to gain some benifits from followers even if they primarally worship other dieties. 

 I have allways found it easyier to remove skills than try and add them to an exzisting framework in which the game designers never thought of them. I can say that switching from RMSS to another system occasionaly I have trouble with thier reducted skill set and find the GM's tend to just gloss over some actions because their are not rules for it or adding the approperate rule is not possible in the game system.

MDC