Topic: General movement maneuvers...

[GoblynByte]

I was scanning through my HARP book today and I noticed something odd that I missed bofore.  There doesn't seem to be a skill for general movement maneuvers.  In RM, don't you use what is essentially your armor skill for MMs?  But the armor skill in HARP seems to imply it is simply movement penalty mitigation and is not used for checks on the maneuver chart.  Well, if a character has run across rough terrain (or do some other form of random movement), do you just roll a Ag/Ag maneuver?  Or is there a skill use I'm missing?

In addition to this, just to double check (though i think I know the answer) would the armor/encumbrance penalty count twice for actions that use Agility or Quickness twice?

[Hawkwind]

I would make them roll an Ag/Ag maneuver, with and adjustment for the speed they are moving. But if its just running, not avoiding attacks or the like, then I would make it pretty easy. Something like flat, open terrain - no roll required, fields with occasional potholds - light and so on, up to rough, broken terrain being a hard roll, or perhaps even very hard.

Hawk

[Skynet]

The way I see it, Rolemaster and HARP use the same method concerning armor skills. Either way, the armor skill is used to offset armor penalty. It cannot go higher than 0. It is just a way to figure out what penalty your character will suffer when moving in armor. Since Rolemaster has more skills, I think of it as a modifier to any skill that requires a roll on the MM table and uses either Ag ou Qu. If no skill is applicable, I would go the HARP way and use a Stat check.

Also, since the text says that it imposes a penalty to all Ag ou Qu maneuvers, I would not double the penalty, since it applies to the maneuver, not the Stat itself. Makes sense?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I was scanning through my HARP book today and I noticed something odd that I missed bofore.  There doesn't seem to be a skill for general movement maneuvers.  In RM, don't you use what is essentially your armor skill for MMs?  But the armor skill in HARP seems to imply it is simply movement penalty mitigation and is not used for checks on the maneuver chart.  Well, if a character has run across rough terrain (or do some other form of random movement), do you just roll a Ag/Ag maneuver?  Or is there a skill use I'm missing?

In RM, it works the same way as it does in HARP. The HARP skill was based on the way that armor worked in RM.

As for general running across rough terrain, unless it is a stressful situation (being chased by Orcs) or important to the story (have to cross quickly to rescue princess in time), then you shouldn't need them to roll for running across a rough field. Rolls should be made only when they can have an impact on the story or in tense situations.

In addition to this, just to double check (though i think I know the answer) would the armor/encumbrance penalty count twice for actions that use Agility or Quickness twice?

No. The armor penalty applies to any skill/maneuver using one of those stats. It isn't applied TO the stat itself. The stat is a trigger. Having 2 triggers does not mean 2 penalties. 

[GoblynByte]

As for general running across rough terrain, unless it is a stressful situation (being chased by Orcs) or important to the story (have to cross quickly to rescue princess in time), then you shouldn't need them to roll for running across a rough field. Rolls should be made only when they can have an impact on the story or in tense situations.

Right.  That would be the assumption, yes.

In RM, it works the same way as it does in HARP. The HARP skill was based on the way that armor worked in RM.

It works the same, but how?  I guess I'm not clear on how the skill works in either game.  Is the armor skill not rolled for MMs in either system, then?  Is it just a simple Ag/Ag meneuver in the case of HARP?

In addition to this, just to double check (though i think I know the answer) would the armor/encumbrance penalty count twice for actions that use Agility or Quickness twice?

No. The armor penalty applies to any skill/maneuver using one of those stats. It isn't applied TO the stat itself. The stat is a trigger. Having 2 triggers does not mean 2 penalties. 
[/quote]

Excellent.  Thank you.

[ReaperWolf]

I added a few skills here and there including a Running (Ag/St) skill. If you need a MM to climb, jump, fly, etc. then there should be some kind of Running skill.

Relying solely upon Ag/Ag seems tacked on and inconsistent with the rhythm of the system. Some people are better at sprinting than others, meaning they have better starting Attributes, but given time you can improve your running ability, that sounds like an opportunity to flesh out the skill list to me but like most things YMMV.

Have a great weekend ya'll!

>>ReaperWolf

[GoblynByte]

I added a few skills here and there including a Running (Ag/St) skill. If you need a MM to climb, jump, fly, etc. then there should be some kind of Running skill.

Relying solely upon Ag/Ag seems tacked on and inconsistent with the rhythm of the system. Some people are better at sprinting than others, meaning they have better starting Attributes, but given time you can improve your running ability, that sounds like an opportunity to flesh out the skill list to me but like most things YMMV.

Have a great weekend ya'll!

>>ReaperWolf

But I'm not really talking about issues of pure speed.  I'm talking about walking or running across rough or unpredictible terrain.  Like, say, moving across a rushing river using uneven or unstable rocks as foot steps.  That sort of thing.

[choc]

use AG/AG or if avalable Acrobatics.

[GoblynByte]

The way I see it, Rolemaster and HARP use the same method concerning armor skills. Either way, the armor skill is used to offset armor penalty. It cannot go higher than 0. It is just a way to figure out what penalty your character will suffer when moving in armor. Since Rolemaster has more skills, I think of it as a modifier to any skill that requires a roll on the MM table and uses either Ag ou Qu. If no skill is applicable, I would go the HARP way and use a Stat check.

Also, since the text says that it imposes a penalty to all Ag ou Qu maneuvers, I would not double the penalty, since it applies to the maneuver, not the Stat itself. Makes sense?

Okay, I apologize for pounding on this but I'm trying to figure out my confusion.  It's a tall order. 

So in RM the final Armor skill total, modified by the armor's maneuver penalty, becomes the penalty for any and all skills that have the MM descriptor.  However, even if this skill, modified by the armor's maneuver penalty, is a positive number it can not provide a bonus to said MM skills.  But in RM this penalty does not apply to OB.

In HARP the same is generally true except that the penalty applies to anything with Ag or Qu (instead of MMs) so that it also affects OB.  Is that right?

[ReaperWolf]

But I'm not really talking about issues of pure speed.  I'm talking about walking or running across rough or unpredictible terrain.  Like, say, moving across a rushing river using uneven or unstable rocks as foot steps.  That sort of thing.

Balance is covered under Acrobatics, like walking a tightrope or traversing a narrow ledge. Crossing a river would either be Acrobatics or Swim. If the terrain is truly rough with the need to ascend/descend I'd go with Climb.

One of the issues with an Armor skill is once you've developed it to a certain point, in terms of Attribute/rank, it becomes unnecessary to improve it futher because it yields no benefit to the character. Other skills, namely weapon and spells you'll always seek to improve for obvious reasons. In my mind that means Armor and some weapon styles like Mounted Combat, should be replaced by talents instead.

<<obligatory>>YMMV

>>ReaperWolf

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Okay, I apologize for pounding on this but I'm trying to figure out my confusion.  It's a tall order. 

So in RM the final Armor skill total, modified by the armor's maneuver penalty, becomes the penalty for any and all skills that have the MM descriptor.  However, even if this skill, modified by the armor's maneuver penalty, is a positive number it can not provide a bonus to said MM skills.  But in RM this penalty does not apply to OB.

In HARP the same is generally true except that the penalty applies to anything with Ag or Qu (instead of MMs) so that it also affects OB.  Is that right?

Essentially, yes, you are correct. However, in RM, armor does have a missile attack penalty (which cannot be reduced in any manner) that applies to ranged attack OBs made while wearing armor.

[GoblynByte]

Okay, I apologize for pounding on this but I'm trying to figure out my confusion.  It's a tall order. 

So in RM the final Armor skill total, modified by the armor's maneuver penalty, becomes the penalty for any and all skills that have the MM descriptor.  However, even if this skill, modified by the armor's maneuver penalty, is a positive number it can not provide a bonus to said MM skills.  But in RM this penalty does not apply to OB.

In HARP the same is generally true except that the penalty applies to anything with Ag or Qu (instead of MMs) so that it also affects OB.  Is that right?

Essentially, yes, you are correct. However, in RM, armor does have a missile attack penalty (which cannot be reduced in any manner) that applies to ranged attack OBs made while wearing armor.

Wow.  I think we were doing things a bit incorrectly in all our sessions in MERP and Rolemaster back in the day.  Ack!  Ah well.

That brings to mind a couple more questions about RM, but I'll post them to the proper area. 

[GoblynByte]

I think I finally figured out why we were doing this incorrectly.  Because, as far as I can tell, in MERP you did roll your "armor" skill.  Really you developed a Movement and Maneuver skill in catagories according to armor, but you added this skill to any MM and used it alone when no skill applied.  Since we started with MERP back in the day I think this must be why we assumed the same went for RM and transposed it as such.  At least I don't feel like a total dink. 

[GMLovlie]

It could still be done that way in harp I guess, just subtract the armour?s MM penalty from the skill total and roll, like in MERP. Although any appropriate skill would of course be used instead, even if it?s lower (i.e. less or no ranks).