Topic: Training Packages & Skill ranks limit

[Fidoric]

Hello everybody.
I do know that Harp rules that you cannot go beyond 6 skill ranks at 1st level.
I am also sure that Harp was made to be tweaked and that it is one of the GM topmost prerogatives, so :

Would it push things too far to imagine an exception to this rule. In the same way that identical talents do not stack except if they come from profession and race, could we say that skill ranks may stack if coming from culture and TP. I think this exception could be used at first level but should not be allowed later.

I thought about that when reading the Arcurias bowman TP. Only Sithi elves may acquire that TP and then they will always pay for 2 discarded ranks (3 rk in missile from Sithi culture and 5 from Arcurias bownman TP). The only way to avoid it presently would be to say that you never train when becoming an Arcurias bowman with the weapon you have grown accustomed to... Doesn't seem logical to me. I have not taken the time to check if this kind of wasted ranks occur elsewhere.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Another option is to just remove those ranks from the TP and don't charge the character for them...

But I see not problem allowing that as a one time thing during chargen. I wouldn't allow it at later levels though...

[Right Wing Wacko]

And thats only if you allow TP's at first level, the wasted ranks get worse when acquiring TP's at higher levels...
I knew of this problem but chose to ignore it until now...

I am beginning to wonder just how much thought was put into the development of TP's as compared to max. # of ranks/level...


Anybody else have ideas/comments/experiences they would like to share?

[Right Wing Wacko]

Or, during chargen, one could chose the TP first and apply ranks from culture and Training Package before purchasing their skill ranks. This would tend to prevent wasting any ranks.
But it dosen't really address higher level TP purchases where a PC may get, say.., 5 ranks to skill x, but the PC can only gain 3 of those 5 due to max rank/level limitations. I have found that my PC's get really turned off by this (DP's are like manna from heaven to them) and actually stay away from TP's... even though I actually like the TP idea and want them to take at least one.

[DBurgdorf]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm having touble imagining why "wasted skill ranks" should be a problem.  I've assumed from the beginning that the TPs in the book were nothing more than examples, and accordingly, have designed personalized training packages for the characters with input from their players, representing the "core areas" in which the characters studied.  Of course those packages are designed to prevent any ranks from being wasted, and of course the TPs are applied before any normal skill rank purchases are made, as those regular purchases are intended to represent the "extra" training the characters had outside of the TP's core training....

Is this not in fact the way TPs were intended to be handled?  Am I being "too nice" to my players by doing this?

-- Darryl

[Right Wing Wacko]

Also, we are taking into account the TP's from Cyradon, not just the core book, and the Cyradon TP's are setting specific.

And who wants to waste ranks?! Omitting the extra(wasted) ranks entirely changes the purchase cost of the TP... so you could end up with PC's paying different costs for the same TP.
Is that bad? I dunno ...but my gut feeling doesn't like it.
And you didn't address TP's acquisition at higher level.

[Fidoric]

I also tend not to use TP much beyond first level. IMO, TP are good to reflect a long-term or life orientation (like the lifestyle TP from RMSS) but they are of limited use when taking into account the quick progression rate the PC experience while adventuring and gaining levels.
I agree with you Right Wing Wacko, having different costs for same TP doesn't feel right. More, I can't see why an experienced archer (to return to the Arcurias bowman example) would gain less advantage of a rigourous training than an newbie. I can understand he ends up with less bonuses, and that is well reflected by the 0-5-2-1 progression. I cannot understand why he should gain less ranks.
So in the specific case of stacking culture and TP (and yes, DBurgdorf, like you I think that TP ranks must be applied prior to DP ranks), I think the 6 ranks limit at 1st level should be breached.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Just want to point out, that if they don't get exactly the same number of ranks and they don't pay the same number of DP, then they are not purchasing the same TP.....

The whole concept of Training Packages in HARP was to allow a way of learning a group of related skills at a slight discount.

If your players are continually maxing out their skills (or some of the skills gained from a TP), then TPs will be less useful to them overall.

As with everything else in HARP, the players have a choice to make, and for them, that choice is whether  or not get the skills now or to wait until a TP gives its best benefit.

As for the TPs in the core book, yes, those were examples, something to show you how they should look.

The TPs in Cyradon are setting specific, and show some of the most common for the setting, but they were not meant to say "use only these".

TPs in HARP can be a great tool, however, they do require thought and planning and should not be considered just a method of getting skills more cheaply. If that is all that they are thought of as, then you would likely do better not including them at all.

[Fidoric]

I believe that TP are great tools to customize PC. Back to when I GMed RMSS, I created characters using your irregular realms Razyr along with a free TP to better define the PC. Thus a knight warrior was very different from the city guard. I wrote an article for TGC some years ago explaining that.
I feel the TPs work the same way in HARP. They are well and good at the beginning to define your PC. At higher levels, I find them more relevant to indicate a change in a character way of living (eg. your Prot?g? mage becoming a journeyman mage). I don't think the PC should choose a nex TP each and every level, just to benefit from the discount in DPs. As you stated, TPs can and must be tweaked to fir the GM point of view.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Of course I didn't mean to imply that my PC's gain or are even offered/come across TP's every level...
After some thought Tim, I see what you mean about PC's who pay different DP's for the same TP are not getting the "same TP"...
I understand clearly now that TP's are more specific than general... a point I have been missing.
I think that I too shall allow the level max for skills be exceeded when purchasing TP's. I do not think it will unbalance the game as long as the GM watches closely.
Thanks for the insight!

[Duskwalker]

I have faced the same problems with TPs as has everybody else here, it seems...
...new characters with too many ranks (e.g. Sithi - Arcurias Bowman),
...advancing characters not gainig all the benefits from TPs.

I had the TPs adjusted before or had the player take a different skill for the cultural ranks, but I like the idea of allowing some highly specialized characters to breach the skill rank limit more. Thx!

I generally allow my PCs to learn TPs only as a kind of reward or if they take an additional profession, reflecting specialized training not given to anybody. I have also designed TP trees to  cover the problem of maximized ranks. Usually, the  first TP offers up to 5 skill ranks in a single skill, but the later have a maximum of 3 ranks. IMHO, this is not only convenient and (..I grow weak ) nice, but also more realistic, since you don't have as much time to study/ practice in your adventuring life as you had before you set out (the 20 ranks maximum remains untouched, even though many of the later TPs only offer 12 to 15).
I designed the TPs mostly in a Apprentice - ... - Master line, so that advancement in certain skills or a talent is required to be allowed to learn a new TP, maybe even a certain level. This also raises the social standing of a character and much more...

TPs, in my eyes, are just so much more as simple 25% DP savers.

[masque1223]

I don't have a problem with using the same TP's over and over again, as long as the fit in with the story.  I have a Dwarf Cleric that I designed a TP for, with the various skills in it representing things that he must continuously advance in order to satisfy the requirements of his god.  In this particular case, his god is a Forge god, so he has to keep up a certain level of smithing skill and other crafts, as well as skill with his warhammer and such in order to retain access to his god-given magic, so every time I level him, I take the same TP, and just use whatever's left over for other skills/spells.  As long as there's a rationale, I don't see a problem.