Topic: Question about Stunned Maneuvering skill.

[Evildead]

How do you use it? Is it treated as a Static Maneuver, ( roll and if successful apply the skill bonus to the -50 for being stunned ), or do you just apply the Stunned Maneuvering bonus to the -50 stun modifier without a roll being made?

[Temujin]

You apply it, with the modifier you end up being added to the maneuver itself; that one is rolled, stunned maneuvering isn't, its just a modifier basically (just like you don't roll Mounted Combat, you roll your BO limited by it)

[RandalThor]

Yes, it is used as a modifier to the stun penalty; it replaces the normal modifier of triple SD bonus. Example: Being stunned gives you a -50 to all actions you can take and you have a total of +40 for stunned maneuvering, then you will have a net result of -10 to perform actions while you are stunned. I believe (and rule this way) that you cannot ever get a positive bonus fron stunned maneuvering. The best you can hope for is a zero modifier, i.e. negating the stun penalty.

This makes me think that Stunned Maneuvering should be a restricted skill. It should take a long time to make stuns immaterial.

[RandalThor]

By the way, to negate rounds of stun you need the Stun Removal skill - at least for RMFRP. For RMSS I believe it is Stunned Maneuvering that removes rounds of stun and the only thing that affects the stun modifier is triple SD bonus.

[pastaav]

If I recall recorrectly there are two skills because old ICE accidently changed the rules for this between printings of RMSS. When they made RMFRP they decided to keep both rule descriptions but with different names.

[RandalThor]

Sounds like a good enough reason for me. I have to say that I prefer the "negating rounds of stun" version and not the "lessing of the stun modifier" version. For my upcoming game, I will only be using the former version, I like to think that the way a high-level character lessens the affect of stun is through their higher skill bonus. (A -50 sucks, but if my base bonus is +180 at 20th level, that -50 doesn't hurt me as much as it did when I was 5th level with a bonus of +100.) That is stunned maneuvering in my opinion, and I don't have to develop a totally new skill either. 

[mocking bird]

We use it as the stun removal skill, essentially the core RMSS skill, and a 20% action in the round used.

Looking up in SoKH (RMFRP) it has both.  The stun maneuvering skill seems pretty easy since you only need to get a +50 skill in it to counter stun in its entirety, unless multiple stun rounds also increase the penalty or somehow affect this skill.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I sort of go half and half.

I use the same skill for a combination of both removal and modifying the penalty suffered by a stun... but ignore the SD stat option for reducing the penalty if the skill is not used.

Basically, the character is simply accepts the -50 M/M penalty and cannot attack whilst stunned or attempts the skill.

If the character does attempts the skill (I treat it as a 0% SM (i.e. the character does not suffer the -50 M/M bonus for being stunned) but takes up the first of the character 3 possible actions for the round), then it is treated with appropriate bonuses/penalties for number of Stun rounds accumulated and the phase in which is attempted.

Full Success negates the Stun effect for the remainder of that round ONLY. The character can act as normal (including attacking etc) and recieves a +20 to the skill (if neeeded) for the following round.


Absolute Success negates the stun for the current round and provides +30 for the skill on the following round.

Partial/Near Success marginally reduces the penalty by receiving bonus (+5 or +10) given on the SM table, however the character is still treated as stunned.

Failures means the character is still stunned and suffers additional penalties to first action taken the following rounds.

 

[mathhatt]

I use the basic RMSS version of stunned maneuvering : no % action required, maneuver roll, depending on success/failure of the maneuver, you get rounds of stunned canceled or added.

[Dark Schneider]

IMO 'Stunned Maneuvering' and 'Stun Removal' should be always different skills, if not it is very cheap remove the problem of stunning.

And about the use of 'Stunned Maneuvering', I see 2 options:

1) Use the bonus to reduce the -50, in this case is strongly recommended develop it as restricted.
2) Roll first 'Stunned Maneuvering' in the same dificulty column that maneuver you want to do, if the result is a number, use it to reduce the -50. Ignore other results.
So, for example, you want to do a very hard maneuver while stunned, then first you roll for 'Stunned Maneuvering' in 'very hard' column, the result give us a number, 30, now you can roll your maneuver with -20 (-50 + 30).

If not, I see too easy reduce the penalty to 0 very soon and cheap, you only need a +50 bonus in skill, including stats...about 7-8 ranks.

[mocking bird]

I use the basic RMSS version of stunned maneuvering : no % action required, maneuver roll, depending on success/failure of the maneuver, you get rounds of stunned canceled or added.

How did you come up with a 0% action?  Do you have a rule reference or is it a houserule?

[Joshua24601]

The group I'm in came up with a house rule that I think is kinda neat...

If your stunned, prior to declaration, (or action if an early hit stuns you before you act in a given round) you make a stun roll.
This is rolled on the MM chart.  The difficulty is dependent on how many rounds of stun you currently have accumulated (and decreases as the number goes down).  For 1 round of stun you use the light difficulty column, 2 is medium, 3 hard, and so on.  Note that if the PC has accumulated 3 rounds of stun this roll will be made 3 times, in each of the 3 rounds.
Your roll is open-ended, modified by your stunned manuvering skill (or SD * 3, if no skill) and -100, (the GM may also modify it with willpower, importance of the action, bonuses like adrenal moves).
The number that results from the MM chart is the % of normal activity you can perform (without any stunned modifier) in a round.

This has 4 primary effects...
1. The usefulness of your stunned manuvering skill is relative to the damage (round of stun) you've received.  A super fighter with a skill bonus of 100 in stunned manuvering can pretty eaisly shrug off 1 round of stun, but 5 rounds is a LOT harder.
2. There's the possibility that getting stunned will knock you off your feet, or worse.  Standing around dazed by 3 rounds of stun could cause you to trip an fall... if you roll low enough on the MM chart you can injure yourself.  This makes it so a buff enemy who's got 10 rounds of stun usually just falls down and knocks himself out, rather then just getting wailed on by the PC's for a hour of game time.
3.  It's possible to roll higher then 100% actions on the MM chart... This can either be ignored, or a "ARRRRrrrg, now I'm angry", response to being hit.  The 'Suburb job' bonuses on the chart can be similarly ignored or interpreted as morale raising results from a Character getting hit hard and brushing it off like his invincible.
4. The average person, rolling a 50 with 1 round of stun will only have 30% activity.

[mathhatt]

I use the basic RMSS version of stunned maneuvering : no % action required, maneuver roll, depending on success/failure of the maneuver, you get rounds of stunned canceled or added.

How did you come up with a 0% action?  Do you have a rule reference or is it a houserule?

house rule

[yammahoper]

I charge 20% action, as for most Self Control Skills.

yamma

[pastaav]

I use the basic RMSS version of stunned maneuvering : no % action required, maneuver roll, depending on success/failure of the maneuver, you get rounds of stunned canceled or added.

How did you come up with a 0% action?  Do you have a rule reference or is it a houserule?

My memory is a bit foggy, but I think I heard the same from the Rolemaster mailing list way back.

A personal thought is that the background might be in that one of the stunned maneuvering skill versions work like transcend armor, giving a bonus to offset stun, for that version no % activity is pretty reasonable. Another of stunned maneuvering version is the one that is now known as stun removal, that one should have by logics have activity requirement.
Depending on what verson you begun playing with it seem likely that you in absence of other arguments stick to activity requirement for the stunned maneuvering that you begun using. 

My self I have been using 0% as activity...

[RandalThor]

I definately like going with the more "reactive" adrenal skills not taking the 20% activity to "activate" and stunned maneuvering/removal falls under that. It doesn't make sense to me to make something that should reflect your increasing ability to persevere through pain due to your increasing experience at dealing with pain.

Of course, this could also be reflected by just using their increasing their skill so the -75 (modified by SD bonus*3) is not as big of a negative, and to not let any development in stunned maneuvering/removal.

[runequester]

Given that it only seems to reduce the maneuver penalty, I think its okay as written. You still cant attack or cast spells.

[yammahoper]

Why overcoming pain should not take some activity escapes me.  It takes a moment to collect yourself, and this is reflected in the 20% activity requirement.

OTOH, I allow attacks with a successful stunned mnv with the full -50 penalty.

yamma

[Walt]

So, we?ve got the same problem at the moment.

So far I realised there are 2 options:

1.) Applying the Stunned Man Bonus on the -50 modifier.
For this is the +1/rank modifier (like ambush) used, without lever or other boni. Hence it would take to develop 50 Skill Ranks to overcome the -50. Fair enough.

2.) Rolling on some static maneuver chart (either the normal MM or the specific stunned maneuver chart von companion II (some call it here stun removal)

On this I find a lot of different modifiers, and all are cumulative:
-10/rd of stun
depending on the total amount of stunned rounds med, hard, or worse difficulties
-50 for disoriented
-30 for melee ?
-0 till -30 because of hits taken

Which modifiers do you use? Does anybody use the -30 for melee situations for the static maneuver?

Thanks