Topic: Helmets

[Fidoric]

I have some questions about helmets in Harp.
When you put on a hard leather helmet, is it made out of leather or not ?
As I see it, the armor categories when applying to helmets do no imply a material rather than another. It's rather a question of what type of helm is commonly worn with any given armor.
For example, rigid leather helmet could include light metal head covering or even wooden or bone helmets.
Chain helmets will certainly include Coif, Camail... but also medium forged helmet like pot helm...
Can anyone help me ?

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi,

AFAIK, all leather is soft. To get rigid leather, it is treated (boiled in oil, etc) to make it that toughness. It may be double thick or have some metal plates (not enough to be called plate, obviously). The same thickness and results may be acheived by using Chitin shell, thus it will have the same Armour types.

The Leather armours are the exception as natural creatures all have a type of leather and thus need to be able to be categorised into the system. Martial Law does this by showing natural armours and what extra bonuses they grant.
(If you dont have that book then get it!)

[Fidoric]

No problem with animals armor, my question is specifically on helmets. I am sure a bone helm for example cannot be classified as plates. As it is rigid and fragile (in comparison with metal at least), I think it should be treated as rigid leather for DB.

[Duskwalker]

Since this is your game, have it your way!
I would make a bone helmet equivalent to rigid leather as well, maybe even plate, if it were made out of dragon bones.

[Fidoric]

Danke sehr, Duskwalker
Effectively, Dragon bones are certainly tougher and will qualify for plate rating. Do you know if rigid leather helmets have historical counterparts ? I can hardly picture a rigid leather helm anyway.

[Duskwalker]

Yes, rigid leather helmets do have counterparts.
They were (looking at hardened/ boiled laether), in europe, the predecessors of plate helmets and were also very common among the nomadic tribes of eastern asia, especially the mongoles or the huns.
If you take the other option of rigid leather, namely soft leather plated with steel, you also find many examples of such armed caps in literature and in the archeological departement.

Hardening leahter is actually very easy and can produce thick, tough, but slightly bendabel sheets of leather (I've seen and worked sheets up to 1/2" thick) that may be worked into a helmet if you sew (more like tie) them togehter or glue them into e.g. a metal frame.
As far as I've seen, any helm provided in the HARP rules hast it's historical counterpart (although I rule the chain helmet only to exist as armor also covering the neck, I think coif is the correct english word for that piece of armor)

[Fidoric]

Thanks for the precisions.
As for the chainmail helmet, you're right to speak of the coif. Historically, chain mails have often been worn with Pot helm. I think that such light metal helms should be treated as mail helm and not plate helm, otherwise when you attach some mail to it (an aventail for example), you have to downgrade it to plate chain.
BTW, how do we consider wearing multiple armor on a single location (exemple: a coif under au full plate helmet). Sorry if that question has already been asked, I've not searched through the archives.

[Duskwalker]

Historically, chain mails have often been worn with Pot helm. I think that such light metal helms should be treated as mail helm and not plate helm, otherwise when you attach some mail to it (an aventail for example), you have to downgrade it to plate chain.

In how far do you consider a plate helm worn over mail as "light"? There's absolutely no difference to a "regular" plate helm except type. I would always go for the better armor in case of DB (but also with MP and CP) but adjust the damage according to ML and armor type worn (plate for head hits, chain for neck hits).

BTW, how do we consider wearing multiple armor on a single location (exemple: a coif under au full plate helmet). Sorry if that question has already been asked, I've not searched through the archives.

Now that's an interesting question I've asked myself a couple of times. Historically we even find three layers of armor (not only at the head location), namely leather (padded clothing), mail and plate.
I tried adding up the benefits and drawbacks of armor once, but the numbers simply get ridiculous and ML damage adjustments are insane, so I've decided to only use the better armor at a single location. First and foremost because its just so much faster and easier. Rules are abstractions and I can live with those presented in HARP.

BTW, the only system I know and have played/ GMed that realistically covers this topic is H?rnmaster.

[Fidoric]

Thinking about the armor staking, I think it's not a real problem. In fact, the plate armor already includes its padded underwear when giving DB bonuses. We can imagine that a padding+mail+plates will include rather 'light' model of each armor as even a very stout warrior can carry only so much weight, and adding full undergarments, full chain and a normally thick plate armor will weight something like 60 kgs...

[Hawkwind]

Thinking about the armor staking, I think it's not a real problem. In fact, the plate armor already includes

I'm not having a go at you Fidoric - I know you meant stacking, rather than staking , but the comment just sent my brain wandering on a weird trip wondering about vampiric armour, and how you would stat it in HARP?

Cursed armour - perhaps a symbiotic relationship - it provides better than normal DB, but bleeds the wearer for 10 endurance points a day (or maybe 5 con points)?

Or maybe just a straight-out monster? Looks like a normal set of metallic armour, and generates some sort of magical field so that it seems like magic armour, but it attacks as soon as its put on? It regenerates all damage except from fire, holy water and wooden stakes?

Hmm, something to think about.

Hawk

[Fidoric]

I know you meant stacking, rather than staking

You're right Hawkwind.
I like your idea too. Too often, wa can meet cursed weapons but rarely cursed armor. That has a good potential.

[Duskwalker]

Thinking about the armor staking, I think it's not a real problem. In fact, the plate armor already includes its padded underwear when giving DB bonuses. We can imagine that a padding+mail+plates will include rather 'light' model of each armor as even a very stout warrior can carry only so much weight, and adding full undergarments, full chain and a normally thick plate armor will weight something like 60 kgs...

Something I cannot concur.

Reenacting a knight of the middle 13th century I wear a full version of each type of armor.
My complete infantristic outfit consits of normal clothing including leather boots, full padding on the head, the complete torso, the arms and the legs, mail coif, shirt with long sleeves, gauntlets and "trousers", a plate helmet, a shield and a weapon (either spear, axe or sword) plus a dagger.
The overall weight is 48,7 kg (approx. 110 lbs) and is burdensome but manageable to wear in combat (as it was done historically). I plan to add a surcoat with plates sewn inside on the chest, abdomen and the back, adding an additional 6 to 7 kg to the overall.
Don't fall for the trap of a lighter version of armor, there simply is and was no such thing!

As I said before, I can live with the mechanics provided by HARP.

[Fidoric]

Thank you for the precisions Duswalker.
In Harp term, you wear something like a Full Mail including its padded underwear plus a plate helm and and leather boots. What you are planning to do is to add some metal plates above the mail shirt, turning it into a "Plate/Chain" shirt.
You are not planning to stack your current armor (mail) with a full plate cuirass.
That was my point. My numbers were not very accurate and 60 kgs are indeed manageable, but the idea was that you can not wear a plate armor above a chain armor above a padded armor. What you can do is wearing a full plate armor including mail pieces and a heavy gambison.
Do you agree on this ?