Topic: Undead and Death in X rounds

[Chris Seal]

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been asked before - I did a quick search but nothing serious so could have overlooked it.

Anyhoo - I was wondering how folks deal with the death in X rounds for undead. Given that they don't really have a 'system' to die of systemic shock from and blood loss isn't much of a problem would losing an arm really slow an undead beastie down. In tonights game I ruled that a death in X rounds did destroy them, with the caveat that I was going to look into it and may change my ruling from here on out, but this seems wrong and I am interested to see if I have overlooked something.

Look forward to your comments

Cheers
Chris

[masque1223]

I like to stick with the classics.  Remove the head or destroy the brain.  But then, I also play AFMBE.

[Arioch]

IMHO it depends on the situation, but usually I don't apply "death in x rounds" or "istant death" effects to undead. Once one of my players decapitated a skeleton in one round and then turned to face another opponent... only to be attacked by the now headless skeleton from behind. 

[Dr_Sage]

Its a good question.

I am not shure if there is an official ruling, but I agree with your "destroyed" ruling, becuse that critical is supposed to be one of the highest,  meaning massive damage to its body.

One short House Rule of my own: I treat undead as ordinary living beings when attacked by their specific vulnerabilities: silver to some, garlic to vampires, blessed weapons or Holy Bolt to most, etc.

[Dr_Sage]

IMHO it depends on the situation, but usually I don't apply "death in x rounds" or "istant death" effects to undead. 

Hi!

One question: but how do you treat the massive damage? I mean if the undead in question can be defeated by concussion hits, why penalize the player for rolling high? 

[jurasketu]

Well. Undead is a "magical effect". So magical effects and even non-magical effects can "destroy" the magical energy holding the undead thing "together". So I use the rules as written in the Monsters Guide for Undead. If undead has the major regeneration ability (Zombies do not) - then you need fire or magic (or other effect that exploits a specified vulnerability) to do permanent damage. If the damage cannot be regenerated (magic, magic weapons, silver, holy water, sunlight, fire, etc) - then its permanent damage. Enough permanent damage - then its totally destroyed - so if my magic weapon "kills" the skeleton or wight - its really destroyed.

Otherwise I treat "death criticals" as the undead is disabled (ie broken apart or whatever) and will have to regenerate back together. Since regeneration is relatively slow, clobbered undead are out of action. The thought being that a headless skeleton can't function properly and hence is no threat until it puts itself back together. The PCs can then burn or otherwise completely destroy the undead if they choose - or find themselves fighting the undead AGAIN after enough minutes have passed.

Zombies don't regenerate - so my rule is they are destroyed if a death critical occurs - ie the magical energy is too disrupted by the blow. I do ignore bleeding effects. If they have Death's Endurance - they ignore stun per the rules already.

By the rules, Zombies have frailty for head and neck criticals (if you're using the hit location options) which yields a super bonus of +50 after other adjustments. Other undead have "vulnerable" hit locations as well (some depend on the weapon type) and would gain the same special bonus.


Robin

[mocking bird]

We have gone over this issue many times in RM as well.  We have decided that crits do the given damage but we will alter the flavor text.  To ignore crit penalties & kills (decapitated skeletons are unaffected by having no head for example) really ticks off players - especially since most death crits offer no extra damage.  Also, if undead are able to bleed, there is something comparable to blood (mechanically in game terms if not the undead having blood) then it should be able to damage them to inaction via a death crit.

[Dr_Sage]

To ignore crit penalties & kills (decapitated skeletons are unaffected by having no head for example) really ticks off players - especially since most death crits offer no extra damage. 

Now you underestand my point above. 

I believe such critical shall at least disable/incapacitade the creature, or do tons of concussion hits damage.

PS: My zombies "bleed" in game terms when affected by holy attacks. They literaly burn round after round to oblivion. 

[Mattiyaho]

 THe way we have played it if the undead has in its description a way to kill it like decapitation and a instant death crit is rolled the undead is decapitated and dies instantly. If a flaw such as this is not preasent then it is paralised for at least 24 hours or untill natural regeneration heals it, which ever is longer, if the players don't dispose of it properly. I also rule that if an undead doesn't have natural regeneration that it heals as a mortal even if reduced to 0 hits unless the damage done to it doesn't regenerate. Undead need to always be specialy disposed of decapitated for some, burnt to ash and disperced, covered in holy water etc..
 I have played under some GM's that have ruled that undead along with dragons, constructs, and Demi gods ignore all death blows.

[Chris Seal]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I take mocking bird and Dr Sage's point about ticking off the players and will continue on the way I have been, allowing the death in X rounds effect to stick.

[bunny]

I allow the instant death and death in X rounds results - justified with breaking up the body being enough to disrupt whatever magic is animating the corpse. To me the sole deciding factor should be how powerful do you want them to be? If you grant them immunity from such results (together with immunity from stun, bleeding, slash attacks or whatever else you think is reasonable - I've seen several approaches) then they are going to become much, much tougher.

I like undead to be horrific things which have to be killed quickly due to the constitution drain, fear and general horror effect they engender in their heroic opponents. I dont want undead battles to degenerate into "slugfests" where the players focus on doing lots and lots of hits - it detracts from the mood of fighting undead in my opinion.

[Hawkwind]

IIRC I'm pretty sure that in a previous discussion of this, Rasyr said that unless undead had specific immunities like Death's Endurance, then stun, bleeding and death results applied to them. That's certainly how I run them in my campaign, although they generally don't stay dead unless the players burn them or whatever after downing them, but, as has been mentioned, regeneration takes a long time, so they're not coming back for the same combat.

Hawk

[black flag]

Like You Hawk

[Arioch]

Now you underestand my point above. 

I believe such critical shall at least disable/incapacitade the creature, or do tons of concussion hits damage.

I agree with you here, I've not said that the critical had no effect at all: damage done by it still applies (maybe with a bonus), I just don't apply the death effect unless I feel that the undead should be affected by it.

[munchy]

As you only get death in x rounds with high crits, I would also allow those hits to destroy the undead. Maybe it slowly, in a sort of cinematic effect crumbles to pieces, and maybe is allowed one last attack, throwing its head at the opponent or flailing the foe with his own fallen off arm. Or it explodes and hits the opponent(s) with bone shrapnel or if non-dangerous damage is wanted with this crit, it could splatter the slayer with rotten flesh, blood and gore, bone pieces and the like - disgusting, not lethal.

[Dr_Sage]

...don't stay dead unless the players burn them or whatever after downing them, but, as has been mentioned, regeneration takes a long time, so they're not coming back for the same combat.

Hawk

Agreed.

I was not discussing undead regeneration/healing, just the imediate tactical effects in battle.

PS: Some undeads, like dumb skeletons, are considered just animated corpses in my game, so they usually do not come back (usually ).

PPS: And lets all remmember that in most campaigns undead iminities/regeneration shall be unknow or even exagerated by legend.

[Unwise]

For death in X rounds, I just make them start crumbling, the magic holding them together is no longer strong enough to overcome the injuries. So a vamp will start turning to ash/dust buffy-style, skeletons will start having bones detach and they eventually die.

The major factor for me is, how long do I want to spend in the fight? Most combats take longer than I want anyway. As a GM, remember that undead don't run away or vary tactics much, so making the fight grind down to a "must take all their HP" fest can be very dull.

One change that I am really happy with, is making all holy attacks do their actual damage to undead. So a holy weapon can make undead bleed, stun and feel negatives. This was necessary as the holy table is simply no better than a normal attack table, so I can see no point in using spells like blessed weapon. I love this change, as now before combat, all characters run to the cleric and plead for a blessing.