Author Topic: More questions  (Read 3554 times)

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Offline bunny

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More questions
« on: September 26, 2007, 10:13:44 PM »
I have a couple of questions regarding HARP balance and whether others have had similar experiences as our group has. (I've made several of these over the last week - dont take that as criticism, merely trying to get the best out of the best system I've found too date.. :))

There seem to be some talents which are almost required. I cant imagine playing a high level spell caster without eloquence, nor a high level warrior without instinctive defence or an archer without speed loader. I always get concerned when an RPG contains an element which becomes mandatory for all characters (or all within some subgroup) as it suggests to me that the option is unbalanced - I like those options to involve weighing pros and cons as imo it makes characters more diverse and interesting. I'm wondering whether the cost for either of these should be higher, or whether their efficacy should be reduced...

To focus on just one: Eloquence is the one I've really noticed - +25 to all spell casting is a pretty huge advantage, the only drawback being you're about one level behind other casters in development of other skills. As the casters advance in levels, this becomes less and less of a cost (as that extra level has only gained the diversified mages twenty extra ranks in spells or other skills) while the benefit becomes greater and greater (as the high level mages gain access to more and more spells). In addition, once mages begin scaling by say +15 or +20 Power Points it becomes almost impossible without eloquence due to the decline in return on investment from developing skills.

I've toyed with limiting eloquence to only a few spells (perhaps 1 spell per 5DPs or something). Alternatively allowing the eloquent mage to cast spells as if they had 5 extra ranks or something. I'd be curious if anyone else has found similar problems with the system or if you think I'm just making problems where there arent any... :)

Offline Hawkwind

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Re: More questions
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2007, 01:22:16 AM »
Well, I don't disagree about eloquence being almost mandatory for primary spellcasters - certainly all the primary spellcasters in any campaigns that I have run have taken it. Its not as popular amongst semi-spellusers such as rangers and harpers. However, I don't know that its unbalanced - as you said, at a cost of 40 DPs its a whole level worth of points. That is 20 ranks that they could spend on spells.

Hawk

Offline janpmueller

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Re: More questions
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2007, 02:48:36 AM »
I believe I'm a rather strict GM, but I usually limit talents roleplaying-wise, and seem to have always played with people who like that or do it for themselves.
A character needs to have a very good reason to claim to be eloquent. If a character concept involves living on the streets, dabbling in arcane arts, I'd allow Streetwise and maybe 1 or 2 "illegal" spells (if appropriate), but definitely not eloquence.
Likewise, if I have a college-mage, he might well be eloquent, but wouldn't be hardened in life.

Min-Maxing was always something I tried by fixing player attitude rather by fixing the game system.

Not every fighter can be ambidexterous. It's a matter of statistics :)
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Offline bunny

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Re: More questions
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2007, 03:44:40 AM »
I believe I'm a rather strict GM, but I usually limit talents roleplaying-wise, and seem to have always played with people who like that or do it for themselves.
A character needs to have a very good reason to claim to be eloquent. If a character concept involves living on the streets, dabbling in arcane arts, I'd allow Streetwise and maybe 1 or 2 "illegal" spells (if appropriate), but definitely not eloquence.
Likewise, if I have a college-mage, he might well be eloquent, but wouldn't be hardened in life.

Min-Maxing was always something I tried by fixing player attitude rather by fixing the game system.

Not every fighter can be ambidexterous. It's a matter of statistics :)
I have a similar solution meaning anyone with eloquence has tight restraints on back story - there is one path to eloquence and it involves deep study with a reclusive, hard-to-find sect of masters with a deep understanding of magic. I just like to test my prejudices against the world - see if I'm imagining things.

I dont really regard choosing eloquence as min-maxing though - I think the options available to players bring costs and benefits and it just seems a little skewed in this case (at high levels, anyhow).

Offline bunny

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Re: More questions
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2007, 03:46:52 AM »
Well, I don't disagree about eloquence being almost mandatory for primary spellcasters - certainly all the primary spellcasters in any campaigns that I have run have taken it. Its not as popular amongst semi-spellusers such as rangers and harpers. However, I don't know that its unbalanced - as you said, at a cost of 40 DPs its a whole level worth of points. That is 20 ranks that they could spend on spells.

Hawk

Early on I think it's balanced - at high levels though those 20 extra ranks in spells amount to between +20 and +100 spread across all spells. Eloquence is +25 to every spell you know. The only real advantage is the ability to scale spells you've trained higher, but by level 10 that distinction between mages is likely to have almost evaporated anyhow.

Dr_Sage

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Re: More questions
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2007, 04:42:43 PM »
Honestly?

I strugled with the same issues as you. We think alike btw.

But now I accept that HARP offer choises at least (some RPGs don?t). But indeed some paths are mandatory to be the best at some core funcion. For example you probably won?t really need Instinctive Defense so badly if you are a Fighter Archer, but you will certaly need Eloquence if you want to scale up spells.

Specificaly regarding Eloquence: I nowadays accept that its an expensive part of the pure SpellCaster build - period. Its the way mechanics helps against huge spellcasting penalties (not justifying, just explaining the way I see it).

What you can do to integrate Eloquence more smothly is break it into 2 parts:

* Minor Eloquence: +10 Spellcasting Costs: 20 DPs
* Major Eloquence: +25 Spellcasting Costs: 40 DPs (yes its not linear)

I hope that helps.

PS: As soom as you guys start to dig into Initative issues take a look at my Rouse Rules below. ^^
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 04:49:09 PM by Dr_Sage »

Offline Karak_Nor

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Re: More questions
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2008, 08:41:11 AM »
One thing you could look at doing it tying eloquence to only those who have the talent Focus Style (verbal).  Therefore a mage with Focus Style (Trance) and Focus Style (Gestural) couldn't use it.  However, this only applies if you are using College of Magic.

Offline Fidoric

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Re: More questions
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2008, 03:45:50 AM »
I consider eloquence as the result of a ritual which 'awakes' the power within an individual. In fact, it's rather close to the 'enable chi' in one of the Harper's bazaar. That way I can keep a tight grip on it and make it justified by story and some allegiances...
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Offline Pat

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Re: More questions
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2008, 05:49:00 AM »
The other side of the coin is that, generally, any NPC or Big Bad Guy will also have these abilities.I create my baddies to have these talents as well to counter-act the PC advantages. While this doesn't help with animals, I believe that any sentient creature (high level demons, high level undead,dragons etc) will have the option of these talents as well.

Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: More questions
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2008, 07:59:11 AM »
Or, you can simply lower the bonus for Eloquence...
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Offline Karak_Nor

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Re: More questions
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2008, 09:15:52 PM »
Or, you can simply lower the bonus for Eloquence...

You can't do that!!  That would be too easy.   :D