Topic: Hammer Strike

[bunny]

I mentioned this in the spells that need fixing thread, but am curious if anyone else has found this spell too powerful? We have a bunch of fourth level characters, including a paladin and warrior mage with damage multiplying spells. It just seems way to easy to me to scale up - 4 times damage is quite easy to achieve. We find it a killer and that it makes the other combatants almost irrelevant. At this stage I'm thinking of reducing the spell's efficacy drastically (to a base +5hp damage, then +10, then x2 or something like that). If it's coupled with an attack type which can stun easily, they can generate hundreds of hp damage in no time at all. Any thoughts?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

If you think it is too powerful, try changing it so that the base form of the spell does +5 hits of damage to any concussion hit damage done by an attack within the duration like you are suggesting, with an additional +5 hits for +3 PP (remember, each +5 hits beyond the first also gives a -15 to the casting roll.

And that with the normal spell, every PP expended beyond the base amount requires the casting roll be modified by -5. Thus 4x damage is -30 to the casting roll, plus another -20 or -40 if extra stun is done etc...

[bunny]

If you think it is too powerful, try changing it so that the base form of the spell does +5 hits of damage to any concussion hit damage done by an attack within the duration like you are suggesting, with an additional +5 hits for +3 PP (remember, each +5 hits beyond the first also gives a -15 to the casting roll.

And that with the normal spell, every PP expended beyond the base amount requires the casting roll be modified by -5. Thus 4x damage is -30 to the casting roll, plus another -20 or -40 if extra stun is done etc...

*nod* I was remembering to insist on all the spell-casting penalties. Even with the negative for scaling though, it was pretty easy for him to do (especially if he was able to take extra time, though admittedly this isnt usually the case).

The more I ponder it, the more I think the +5hp option is looking good. Although there are times when the semi-spell user/fighters are outgunned of course (like in surprise situations where they are unable to cast spells before battle). Nonetheless, the warrior in our group has so far been forced to take a back seat in melee combat - pretty much holding off the opponent's while the multiplied damage warrior-mage and paladin chew through the enemy. I'm curious if others have had similar experiences and if there's any other solution (or if I've missed something obvious).

Cheers

[jurasketu]

Well. I don't think its THAT powerful compared to any other spell for the PP expended.  As I mentioned in a previous post, HARP is very conducive to spell-based combat and a corollary to that is non spell casting fighters are less "useful". But that being said, I think you need to give HackNSlash a try. With good rolls or high skill, a quality fighter can send foes to early graves without a damage multiplier. In HackNSlash, only the non-critical damage gets the multiplier and Robin Hood bowmen can down foes like you would expect as well [where in standard HARP only sniping and a critical will make that happen].

Additionally, as I pointed out in the same post, if the bad guys can throw a Dispell Magic - they can create a lot of problems for Warrior Mages. In HARP, if the good guys have spell casters, then the bad guys need them or equivalent spell casting items - or you have to up the numbers, strength and RRs of the bad guys. Or increase the frequency of encounters.

Good luck!

Robin

[bunny]

Additionally, as I pointed out in the same post, if the bad guys can throw a Dispell Magic - they can create a lot of problems for Warrior Mages. In HARP, if the good guys have spell casters, then the bad guys need them or equivalent spell casting items - or you have to up the numbers, strength and RRs of the bad guys. Or increase the frequency of encounters.

Good luck!

Robin

The Dispel Magic option is certainly a good warrior-mage specific countermeasure - I want to avoid the inevitable arms race by upping the encounters (as then the poor unspelled warrior is just going to become even more irrelevant).

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

And don't forget, having a Warrior Mage come along to whup up on the party's Warrior Mage with the exact same spells and/or spell combinations...

But you would need to set it up...

1) Party runs into a group of bad guys as a minor encounter in a larger adventure, some escape (this is important).

2) Those that escape tell bigger bad guys, who hire specialists. Going from the descriptions of the survivors, they may start off by following the party, or bribing/paying/duping any hirelings into giving them info about the capabilities of the party.

3) Once they know what the party can do, they send in those that they think can whup on them. Including an enemy Warrior mage, who has time to prepare his spells before they ambush the party (i.e. the party Warrior Mage does not have time to prep HIS spells).

The best sort of back drop for this is a large city. Have the low level encounter be with members of the thieve's guild. They then consider the party a threat and the chief of the guild, being smart, is going to gather info before attacking and do his best to counter their special abilities. Like I mentioned up above, an ambush where their Warrior Mage has a chance to prepare while the party's doesn't. And if they know of other spell casters, they will also likely have a mage or two working things from the edges, casting dispels on various party members, trying to cancel out any active spells that they might have going on.

Hey! and being the thieve's guild, perhaps instead of trying to kill them, they decide to just beat the heck out of them and then rob them blind and leaving them without any of their equipment......

[bunny]

And don't forget, having a Warrior Mage come along to whup up on the party's Warrior Mage with the exact same spells and/or spell combinations...

But you would need to set it up...

1) Party runs into a group of bad guys as a minor encounter in a larger adventure, some escape (this is important).

2) Those that escape tell bigger bad guys, who hire specialists. Going from the descriptions of the survivors, they may start off by following the party, or bribing/paying/duping any hirelings into giving them info about the capabilities of the party.

3) Once they know what the party can do, they send in those that they think can whup on them. Including an enemy Warrior mage, who has time to prepare his spells before they ambush the party (i.e. the party Warrior Mage does not have time to prep HIS spells).

The best sort of back drop for this is a large city. Have the low level encounter be with members of the thieve's guild. They then consider the party a threat and the chief of the guild, being smart, is going to gather info before attacking and do his best to counter their special abilities. Like I mentioned up above, an ambush where their Warrior Mage has a chance to prepare while the party's doesn't. And if they know of other spell casters, they will also likely have a mage or two working things from the edges, casting dispels on various party members, trying to cancel out any active spells that they might have going on.

Hey! and being the thieve's guild, perhaps instead of trying to kill them, they decide to just beat the heck out of them and then rob them blind and leaving them without any of their equipment......

Thanks for your suggestions. The trouble I am having is that the unspelled warriors are most often sidelined and I feel this would be equally true if fighting opponents with damage multipliers. With an opponent doing 4x damage it has seemed too easy to us for low/mid level characters to just be destroyed - they're all going to have to put so much into parry that they'll be inflicting minimal damage. The surprise situations are where the warriors do shine, of course, but - surprise a bunch of players a couple of times and they become extremely paranoid and cautious. I must confess the dispel magic tactic has been underutilised - it's an obvious counter to warrior mage types I should have been using more (especially since we use it regularly as players!)

In passing, I havent mentioned yet that having such easy access to the game designer is an extremely valuable and appreciated privilege - thanks for your time!

[Dr_Sage]

Interesting topic.

I have not playtested this spell yet, but in my games most dramatic combats lasts around 4-5 rounds. SOmethimes more but the first rounds are decisive precisely becuse of the unajusted HacknSlash system.

In fact the system is not more lethal, but the tables are. Just take a look: a result of 50 is usually incapacitating and 80 is lethal.

So I realised that in my games, where many times they can?t prepare thenselves ahead, if the player cast one ofensive suport spell like that is one less round hes contribuiting. If he also casts a spell like Shield, 2 rounds less contribuition. All this time the Fighter is busting his ass and doing lots of death blows (usualy 1 charge = 1 less regular enemy).

I also realised in this forum that many DMs forget to count the time appropriately, letting players investigate many dungeon rooms in seconds. Pls make shure your game is realiostic regarding this aspect.

Best regards,

Andre

[bunny]

Interesting topic.

I have not playtested this spell yet, but in my games most dramatic combats lasts around 4-5 rounds. SOmethimes more but the first rounds are decisive precisely becuse of the unajusted HacknSlash system.

In fact the system is not more lethal, but the tables are. Just take a look: a result of 50 is usually incapacitating and 80 is lethal.

So I realised that in my games, where many times they can?t prepare thenselves ahead, if the player cast one ofensive suport spell like that is one less round hes contribuiting. If he also casts a spell like Shield, 2 rounds less contribuition. All this time the Fighter is busting his ass and doing lots of death blows (usualy 1 charge = 1 less regular enemy).

The extra prep time is definitely where the non-spell using warriors have the edge. My concern is that the extra benefit from 4x damage is too powerful for missing out on 1 or 2 rounds of dealing damage. There have been times the warrior mage types were decidedly disadvantaged - surprise situations or sudden combat situations. The trouble is this becomes a tired tactic and leads to a kind of "stealth-based arms race" - there's only so many ambushes or sneak attacks you can stage, plus the players get more and more paranoid and prepared.

Overall, I think the balance will be preserved (or more to my tastes anyhow) if the spell allows an extra 5hp, 10hp or 15hp of damage (though maybe even 3hp, 6hp and 9hp will be enough). I think the gain then will be comparable to the penalty paid. In the last combat we had, the warrior mages were literally wiping out one 100hp foe per round (admittedly he rolled quite well, but not extremely so) while the rest of the warriors in the party were well-matched. They rapidly adopted the tactic of full parry until the big guns could get there.

I also realised in this forum that many DMs forget to count the time appropriately, letting players investigate many dungeon rooms in seconds. Pls make shure your game is realiostic regarding this aspect.

This is a well made point - though not a trap we have fallen into. In general, each spell only lasts for one combat - they dont cast the spell every time they enter battle, nor walk around continually powered. It's purely a cost vs benefit issue...

[Dr_Sage]

The trouble is this becomes a tired tactic and leads to a kind of "stealth-based arms race" - there's only so many ambushes or sneak attacks you can stage, plus the players get more and more paranoid and prepared.

Excelent point.

The arms-race is present on almost every gaming table and I avoid it at all costs. I just ment to say that somethimes some characters shine indeeed, and we try to keep the situation different everytime. Like the unarmored Monk shinning when fighting on a wet, slippery ships deck in the middle of a storm.

Just to give an example: I was having trouble with the full armored fighter in my gamng group. His defenses (as the game mechanics works) were effective agaist almost anything (blows, missiles, elemental attacks etc.). And the rules do not forbid the Elementalist from casting "StoneSkin" on the Figher for a 180 DB if he wants.

So basicaly I tried to vary the encounters a lot and I believe everyone feels good.

One thing: maybe use HacknSlash is a good idea for your group. On our last "boss battle" the group faced a group of mounted, armored and well trained cavaliers. With some luck the Ranger Archer managed to do"One-shot-one-kill" shots 7 times in a row (I consider 9 rounds stun + 10 bleeding/rd= kill). Basicaly he was the biggest DPS.

And HacknSlash has one more advantage to help you: The concussion hits multiplied are only a few. Its dificult to explain but I can try if you are curious.

Regards, and call if need. ^^

[bunny]

One thing: maybe use HacknSlash is a good idea for your group. On our last "boss battle" the group faced a group of mounted, armored and well trained cavaliers. With some luck the Ranger Archer managed to do"One-shot-one-kill" shots 7 times in a row (I consider 9 rounds stun + 10 bleeding/rd= kill). Basicaly he was the biggest DPS.

And HacknSlash has one more advantage to help you: The concussion hits multiplied are only a few. Its dificult to explain but I can try if you are curious.

Regards, and call if need. ^^

Perhaps I'll try this - my concern was that the tables looked very deadly in both directions. I'm concerned at my ability to balance the battles. As it is, usually there is at least one battle per level where the players almost die - I'm worried that I'll misjudge it and wipe them out - of course I've done that to them before a few times so they'll probably forgive me once more..

[Dr_Sage]

Look,

HnS combat without ajustments can be realy chaotic for the DM (specially if you roll dice in front of them).

But if you allow me to suggest: disabling a character has the same tactical effect as killing him (Like unconscious bleeding for example), but does not ruim the story arcs.

You have 2 ways of doing this: in the open, using Fate Points for example. If the guy spend a fate Point he is lucky to be alive and his "punishment" is technicaly 5 DPs.

Or behind the courtain converting deadly criticals in nasty descriptions: "your friend fell out cold, straight to the ground with blood pounding from the huge wound, what will you do?"

Usually I use this second option to make every character important and create ties. Some time ago the Thief stopped fighting and spend 4 rounds to free the Cleric from the Huge Anaconda, inside the muddy waters of the swamp. Why would I use drowing rules, or deadly criticals if the sceene was SOOO cool?

"In the Movies noone is dead if someone cares about then" Andre

PS: Another tip: I never ever say a word to the players about how much time they have before dying from a lethal critical. Its just way too much meta-game knowloge, ans most players can?t deal with it. "Ok, I can kill the monster in 2 rounds, make breakfast and then attend to the wounded." Arrcck!

PPS: Once the Cleric received a heavy, but non-lethal critical and was bleeding. The Elementalist ran to save the enemie?s life first becuse he wanted to interrogate someone. The bastard knew she was out of danger for the minute and used meta-game knowloge. I almost trew him out of the window.

[bunny]

I dont know how many posts I can make basically agreeing with you. Meta-game knowledge irks me too, then again we're there to have fun and a significant proportion of my players are "puzzle solvers" rather than role players so I have pretty much surrendered myself to the fact that all of their characters are ridiculously devoted to whichever cause is current.

Thanks for all your input. 

[jurasketu]

I forgot to remind you earlier that Hammerstrike is a TOUCH spell. And the TARGET is a weapon. So, the Warrior Mage can actually give the other fighters "Hammerstrike" weapons (highly recommended for those ugly situations involving those really BIG bad guys). In fact, I allow Hammerstrike to be used on missile weapon ammo (admittedly a bit wasteful since its one spell per shot - but 2x/3x damage for 3/6 PP can be effective in the right circumstances).

Robin