Topic: What are the effects of Athelas (Kingsfoil)?

[Erik Sharma]

In my last session my players had a couple of days of downtime in the Wilderness recuperating after a battle with Kobolds. The unhurt Elven Ranger decided to go Herb hunting while the others recuperated. He managed to find some Athelas. The question arose what are really the effects of Athelas. The description in RMSS Gamemaster Law leave a lot to wish for.


"Capable of curing anything while the patient is still alive, but healing only as effective as the healer".
This one is easy I have ruled that Athelas is capable of healing any disease/poison in the body. But as I understand it is able to heal wounds but limited to the healer applying it. How do I implement this restriction and what are the effects?

"Full effect only in hands of an "ordained" king".
Sounds good and all. But what are the full effects, all wounds, diseases, poisons etc. in one heal?


Some advice how to use Athelas is very much appreciated. As I have ruled now it only can heal all poisons/diseases. But how good do it heal physical damage and how does healing skill limit it and the difference in effect if used by a king?

[Ecthelion]

This Wikipadia article may give some advice.

[Erik Sharma]

It helped a little. As I understand properly prepared Athelas can heal most wounds and stop most bleedings other than being able to cure enchanted poisons etc..

Still it doesn't really state the difference (if any?) of being used by a common man or King (or high-men/dunedain).

I think I will use it as this in my world:

If properly prepared and applied regardless if being used by a king or not.
1. Cures any poison or disease.
2. Cures all hits.
3. Stops all bleedings if applied to wound.

I will leave the king issue for later or for very potent enchanted poisons/diseases. And then I will probably only restrict that use to High-Men (Dunedain).

How does this sound? Since I play in a homebrew campaign and not Middle-Earth I have no problem changing it slightly from Middle-Earth lore. But suggestions and insight are still welcome.

[Ecthelion]

With that ruling you would take away the specialty of Athelas, being more powerful in the hands of royal High Men blood, and make it a very powerful herb that can be used by anyone. I'd rather propose to use it in a way like this:

Effects when used by the rightful High Man king and/or his heirs
- Can cure any poison or disease
- Heals all hits taken
- Stops all bleeding for any one wound

Effects when used by High Men with royal blood
- Recipient gains an additional RR at +20 to shake off the effects to any one poison or disease
- Heals 1-100 hits
- Stops bleeding up to 6 hits/rnd

Effects when used by High Men or Elves
- Recipient gains an additional RR to shake off the effects to any one poison or disease
- Heals 1-50 hits
- Stops bleeding up to 3 hits/rnd

Effects when used by all others
- Recipient gains an additional RR at -20 to shake off the effects to any one poison or disease
- Heals 1-10 hits

Of course no sane person that does not belong to the first two or three groups will pay the listed price for this herb, if rules like this are used. OTOH this differing efficiency, which is dependent on the user, is exactly what makes Athelas so special.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

By the way, high price for athelas is a joke. I quite remember it is a really common herb.

I'll check my "hands of the healer" book and come back later.

[Erik Sharma]

Ectelion your ideas are good but I think I am gonna simplify that a little.

For Injuries:
Used by anyone: Heals any Light wound or reduce Medium and Severe Wounds 1 step.
Used by High Men: Heals anything up to Medium Wounds or reduce Severe Wounds to Light Wounds.
Used by High Man King: Heals Severe and lower wounds.

For Poisons and Diseases the scale is this:
Used by anyone: Heals mild poisons/diseases or reduce effect one level.
Used by Mixed Men: Heals moderate poisons/diseases or reduce effect 2 levels.
Used by High Men: Heals sever poison/diseases or reduce Extreme Effects to Mild Effects.
Used by High Man King: Heals Extreme poison/diseases.

For hits taken by wounds and similar for simplicity I will rule if a wound/poison/disease is completley remove all hits are regained or maybe if you heal a wound/affliction with a reduction by more than one step the hits are healed. Or just 2-20 for each step. For example Common Men heal 2-20, Mixed Men heal 4-40 hits, High Men heal 6-60 and High Men king heal all hits.

Well as I see it Fenrhyl the price is up to GM fiat. I agree that the price is a bit high, but think that value should only be used by someone who can use the full effects of the herb.

Maybe a modification for the buyer should be in order.
Anyone: 1/4 of price
Mixed Men: 1/2 of price
High Men: 3/4 of price
High Men King: Full price.

But then again not everyone can cough up 300 gp just like that. I always set a general roof on price depending on how big Village/Town/City  that anyone can pay for stuff the PCs bring in and tries to sell.

I hope my ranting was clear enough to understand if not feel free to ask and give me some more input.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Taken from "hands of the healer"

in short : ease mental travail (gm discretion), cures many diseases (gm discretion), neutralizes minor poisons, slows major poisons, staves off supernatural maladies and hastens the effect of wounds (x3).
Potency increased in the hands of a royal scion of luthien's line (no brother to the king, no cousin, just someone who his king, who will be king or should be king : in clear all the firstborn in right who can claim luthien as an ancestor). I interpret this as : faster relief and can cure major poisons. but i think it really means "gm's discretion".

It is not rare, can be found among the many weeds and flowers of any numenorean settlement, can be used directly without any preparation and still is noted as costing  180 to 300 gp. Seriously, 300 gp for a savage weed that grows along the roads is pure madness. I guess it is the price someone living reallly far from the west would pay. But what would be the point of paying 300 gp for this when you can find it on the borders of your village ?

[Ecthelion]

Agreed, it would make more sense if Athelas would cost only a few silvers, as it is said to be quite common. In most cases it would then be a herb which is of little use (there is a quote in LotR, The Return of the King, where the healer Ioreth mentions that "I have never heard that it had any great virtue" and "still it smells sweet when bruised"), but in the hands of one of the king's line it can be quite powerful.

[arakish]

Also, remember, Samwise Gamgee calls it a weed.

Which would imply it is very common.

And this is very close to how my wife wrote it:

With that ruling you would take away the specialty of Athelas, being more powerful in the hands of royal High Men blood, and make it a very powerful herb that can be used by anyone. I'd rather propose to use it in a way like this:

Effects when used by the rightful High Man king and/or his heirs
- Can cure any poison or disease
- Heals all hits taken
- Stops all bleeding for any one wound

Effects when used by High Men with royal blood
- Recipient gains an additional RR at +20 to shake off the effects to any one poison or disease
- Heals 1-100 hits
- Stops bleeding up to 6 hits/rnd

Effects when used by High Men or Elves
- Recipient gains an additional RR to shake off the effects to any one poison or disease
- Heals 1-50 hits
- Stops bleeding up to 3 hits/rnd

Effects when used by all others
- Recipient gains an additional RR at -20 to shake off the effects to any one poison or disease
- Heals 1-10 hits

rmfr

[Velig]

In wikipedia the next is stated:
"According to The Lord of the Rings, it was first brought to Middle-earth by N?men?reans, but by the end of the Third Age the knowledge of its healing properties was lost among all but the Rangers of the North."

And I think I read somewhere that Athelas is used by common men to relief headache. This would mean that Athelas is sold for quite small price because the seller wouldn't know of it's potential healing powers and thinks it's just medicine for headache. And even if the seller is aware of Athelas's healing powers he couldn't sell it for very high price if there are other merchants selling it at lower price.

[Warl]

the thing to note is that it mentions "the ability or skill of the healer".

Does the player who is going to use it have healing skill? and how high should that skill need to be in order to use Athelas effectively?

these are things not spelled out in the herbs description, but that you, as a GM could define. Make the use/application/preparation of Athelas a near impossible task on the maneuvers table, or basically applying at minimum a -50 to -100 task penalty to it's use. It's difficulty in use would explain why most herbalists/healers no nothing of it's properties because few have the ability, let alone knowledge, to prepare and use it right.

Another way to deal with it is to make the ability to use it a background option/talent. "Only those of a certain heritage are able to use it.

[DonMoody]

"... in the hands of one of the king's line it can be quite powerful."

"the ability or skill of the healer"


AFAIAC, these are the same.
IMO, the legend of 'in the hands of the king' is based upon the greater learning/knowledge bestowed upon those of the line of kings (likely because they had better teachers; e.g. many of the Rangers of the North - certainly all of those in the direct line of descendents - were taught by those in Imladris).
Those who were better taught/more skilled/more learned in its applications were able to do more with it.
In any Age, those of Royal blood were better taught by those not; and nobility more learned than those that weren?t.
By the time of the Third Age, that knowledge had been long lost by all but a select few (i.e. those in Rivendell and perhaps similar places and the few they taught).


I would have the effectiveness based upon:
1) A maneuver roll total
with:
2) maximum results proportional to total ranks in the skill

DonMoody

[Phil]

In my reckoning, we're all reading way too much into a single prophecy here. It was all about time and place and situation. Time and place - because Aragorn was coming to reclaim the crown of Gondor, the prophetic healing in part was to reinforce his claim and buy him popular support. Situation - because Athelas clearly has particular virtue against the Black Breath, which was the condition causing most concern in the Houses of Healing as they were otherwise unable to treat it.

The prophecues dont say "Only a king can use athelas to heal". It doesn't even say "Kings use this stuff much better than other people". For in game effects, my view is three-fold:

1. Don't use athelas. It's a specific herb with a specific story purposes, not a general RPG toy for PCs to bandy around like a sticking plaster.

2. If you do use it, it has some generic healing virtue but is predominantly useful to combat the effects of terror or corruption-based effects. And you don't need to be a king to use it. If you really are stuck on this king/numenorean link, perhaps make it boost the power of certain healing spell lists.

3. Anything the Numenoreans can do, the High Elves can do better. Its from the high elf line that the power of the high men comes, so if they are particular good with athelas, so too are the elves. Probably the Grey Elves too.

[Justin]

1. Don't use athelas. It's a specific herb with a specific story purposes, not a general RPG toy for PCs to bandy around like a sticking plaster.

*ding ding ding*
QFT, IMHO