Topic: Throwing Weapons - some questions

[badgerbert]

Hi all.

So after many years it is time for some RM again. Happy days.

I am playing a fighter. This group of ours likes to create very powerful combat PCs. Tbh I have never played a fighter so I am going through the rules trying to figure out how to set it for some serious damage dealing.

I have come across this rule that I have never seen in action before: The Throw & Melee Action (p 98 SS / p 215 FRP).

"THE THROW & MELEE ACTION
If stationary, a combatant may throw a weapon using 80%
of his normal OB and still melee in the same round with
only a -20 modification to his melee OB. This action requires
100% activity for the round. Such a combatant may
only use a one-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon and
a shield on the round that he throws the weapon. (He holds
his melee weapon in his non-throwing hand.)"

Ok lets assume I have 100 OB with Sword and 100 OB with Thrown. I am standing face to face with an Orc. Sword in my right hand, shield in my left. A Thrown weapon in my belt - fex a Throwing Dagger/Dart/Shuriken.

1: I declare "Throw and Melee" and proceed to resolve a 80 OB "Dart" attack and then a 80 OB Sword attack vs the poor Orc. In practice this rule seems to allow my fighter to shift his weapon so that he holds both shield and weapon in the offhand hand whilst producing a thrown weapon in the now free mainhand, then throw it and then shift the weapon back and then make a -20 melee attack. Did I get that right?

2: As 1, except it is round two of the same fight. Our fighter has another Throwing dagger in his belt. In fact he has a "8 slot dagger bandolier". I think you can guess where this is headed. He repeats round 1 until he runs out of daggers, that is makes 1 -20 thrown attack and -20 melee sword follow up attack. Did I get that right? 

3: In 1, why not replace the shield with another Sword? I mean if you can juggle a shield and a sword in one hand while throwing daggers why not juggle two swords and throw daggers? So, like 1 and 2, but instead a Thrown -20 attack followed by two -20 sword attacks. Ofc given two weapon fighting etc. Did i get that right?

4: Like 3 but now using fex Dart or Shuriken as the thrown weapon. Why? Because of this: "An attacker using darts can make two attacks in a round at -10 OB for each attack." Its the same for Shuriken. So like 3 but now with 4 attacks: First a -30 Dart attack followed by another -30 Dart attack, followed by a -20 Sword attack followed by a final -20 Sword attack. Its Tiny crits but still... Did I get that right?

5: Like 4 but with fex Adrenal Speed: 8 attacks! 4 -30 dart attacks followed by 4 -20 Sword attacks... Did I get that right?

6: Why not develop two weapon fighting with Shuriken for an opener of 4 Dart attacks from range (11-50' is -10 OB) and go directly into #4. If the opponent has to close a 50 feet gap you practically have 6 dart attacks and two Sword attacks before he has a chance to strike back effectively. Did I get that right?

Sounds like fun! Perhaps not for the GM.... But did I get this right? Weird how I never have encountered this in any games before. Perhaps thats beause I am dead wrong. Any input from you guys is appreciated.

[Ecthelion]

Ok lets assume I have 100 OB with Sword and 100 OB with Thrown. I am standing face to face with an Orc. Sword in my right hand, shield in my left. A Thrown weapon in my belt - fex a Throwing Dagger/Dart/Shuriken.

Though the notion "He holds his melee weapon in his non-throwing hand" from the rules could be interpreted otherwise (though in that case it would be a strange wording IMO), in our group we have always interpreted it that way that the thrown weapon is held in the main (right) hand, whereas the melee weapon is held - together with the shield - in the (left) off-hand. This would mean that the Throw & Melee action is executed in the way that first the thrown weapon is thrown, then the melee weapon held in the off-hand gets grabbed with the now free main hand and then the melee attack gets made.

Another thing to consider is that thrown weapons may AFAIK not be thrown while in melee with a combatant. This means that the Throw & melee action can only be used the round when entering melee combat. So the thrown weapon gets thrown, then we go into melee combat with the enemy.

All in all we handle this action more restrictively than you want to do. OTOH I think this avoid potential abuse. YMMV

1: I declare "Throw and Melee" and proceed to resolve a 80 OB "Dart" attack and then a 80 OB Sword attack vs the poor Orc. In practice this rule seems to allow my fighter to shift his weapon so that he holds both shield and weapon in the offhand hand whilst producing a thrown weapon in the now free mainhand, then throw it and then shift the weapon back and then make a -20 melee attack. Did I get that right?

See above. I think this should only be possible during the first round. And I think the idea is to have the thrown weapon already in the main hand.

2: As 1, except it is round two of the same fight. Our fighter has another Throwing dagger in his belt. In fact he has a "8 slot dagger bandolier". I think you can guess where this is headed. He repeats round 1 until he runs out of daggers, that is makes 1 -20 thrown attack and -20 melee sword follow up attack. Did I get that right? 

This won't be possible because throwing a weapon is AFAIK not allowed in melee. And I think your idea that the throw & melee action offers a simple way to draw and throw a thrown weapon offers exactly this way of abuse.

3: In 1, why not replace the shield with another Sword? I mean if you can juggle a shield and a sword in one hand while throwing daggers why not juggle two swords and throw daggers? So, like 1 and 2, but instead a Thrown -20 attack followed by two -20 sword attacks. Ofc given two weapon fighting etc. Did i get that right?

Using my above interpretation that the melee weapon is held in the off-hand, we may think of it as the sword being held in hand while the shield - perhaps until the thrown weapon gets thrown - is "only" slung around the arm. This may then be a special case to be allowed, why it's explicitly mentioned in the rule. Using your interpretation there would be no reason why this restriction on a shield in the off-hand exists - with potential room for abuse.

4: Like 3 but now using fex Dart or Shuriken as the thrown weapon. Why? Because of this: "An attacker using darts can make two attacks in a round at -10 OB for each attack." Its the same for Shuriken. So like 3 but now with 4 attacks: First a -30 Dart attack followed by another -30 Dart attack, followed by a -20 Sword attack followed by a final -20 Sword attack. Its Tiny crits but still... Did I get that right?

Don't remember this special rule for darts. Is it from RMSS/RMFRP? Or are you perhaps mixing up RM versions? If it's indeed from RMSS/RMFRP, is throwing two darts/shuriken still a 60% action like throwing a weapon normally is? Or is throwing two weapons perhaps a 100% action? In that case I'd say no to using the both rules in conjunction.

5: Like 4 but with fex Adrenal Speed: 8 attacks! 4 -30 dart attacks followed by 4 -20 Sword attacks... Did I get that right?

This won't work due to the restriction that thrown weapons are not allowed to be thrown while in melee.

6: Why not develop two weapon fighting with Shuriken for an opener of 4 Dart attacks from range (11-50' is -10 OB) and go directly into #4. If the opponent has to close a 50 feet gap you practically have 6 dart attacks and two Sword attacks before he has a chance to strike back effectively. Did I get that right?

The melee attack will certainly only be allowed while in melee range. So this won't work.

[badgerbert]

Thanks Echtelion.

I see now that this wont worked as I hoped. Forgot about the "no missile/throw" in melee rule. Not used to non-spellcasters hehe. Thanks

As for the special rule on darts: This is something I found in the 5813P The Armory supplement - Attack table 2.135 Dart p50. The flavor text below the crit table reads as follows;

A metal-tipped wooden throwing dart with feather flights.
Any poison on dart is injected on a critical result.
Large and Super Large criticals may not be obtained from a Tiny critical.
An attacker using darts can make two attacks in a round at -10 OB for each attack.

Im reading that as two attacks is allowed (from range) with -10 since 60 % + 60 % = 120 - 10 - 10 = 100 %.
Maybe the reasoning behind this has something to do with the small size/ease of handling these relatively small items? (Tiny crits)

That could lead to Two Weapon Fighting with darts for 4 attacks from range?
Add speed/haste of some sort and 8 attacks is possible from ranged stationary position?

[Ecthelion]

Two weapon fighting AFAIK is only possible with one-handed melee weapons and not for thrown weapons. So this part won't work. Speed/Haste OTOH should be possible. But it won't help much since throwing a single dart would still be one action . So you could throw two darts plus draw one new dart and already be at the limit of 3 actions per round. The only advantage would be that each dart could be thrown at the full 60% activity and you'd have one dart ready for the next round.

[Ecthelion]

If you want to maximize the number of attacks for a fighter-type character then go for two weapon fighting and combine it with Haste/Speed. That way 6 attacks in a round would be possible. But more than 4 attacks will most often not be useful due to the OB penalties when using three attacks per round. With the Martial Arts Companion you can even have 9 attacks per round. But for thrown weapons or combinations of thrown and melee the rules have some restrictions.

[Hurin]

Just marking this thread, so I can reference it whenever anyone complains about how complex RMU's new action point system is. 

[Majyk]

I’m an even more restrictive GM for this rule.
The Thrown weapon has to already be in one’s hand...because using Adrenal Moves requires % activity(for quick drawing? Would have to look up this rule, though.) one doesn’t have left due to this rule using up 100% for the round, then doesn’t allow movement.  ;J

I am all about cinematic combat so allow shooting/throwing when in melee.  It opens one up for a free attack from their opponent if they don’t make a MM @ Very Hard(-20), though.

Ask your GM about this, as no two RM games are run the same.

This is part of the allure for me as a player, when introducing certain rules/options that a new game has never used before and it creates an ahah exciting moment in play!
Much long life for your Fighter!