Topic: Staying and Telekinesis spells

[Neee-Wom]

I'm not native English so maybe I'm missing something, but the telekinesis spell seems quite low powered, and staying spells seems useless.

Does anyone has found the same problem or maybe I'm not understanding properly how it works?

[Peter R]

I have used staying as a 'remote control' or timer switch. A basic seesaw type of thing plus a candle and a fuse. The staying spell keeps the seesaw tipped one way and the fuse away from the flame.

Telekinesis is great for moving light objects such as keys or pieces of paper. I have had characters engineer their escapes from jail frequently using Telekinesis.

[Neee-Wom]

I understand the trigger use of Staying, but it seems too weak, in RMU it has been fixed making it instantaneous, so you can effectively block somebody, but the pressure is too small, for example at level 8 is only  25 pounds.

I'm worried about how it could be used, can you apply this pressure to the crotch? Or the throat? According to Wikipedia, strangling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangling) requires only 5 psi to affect the carotid and jugular, so let's say that with an RR you can make somebody suffer à la Vader.


Telekinesis has a similar problem, I'm sure that if a Magician level 20 wants to take his lab and all his boks using telekinesis he should be 100 pounds, and spell enhancement list does not fix that.

[Witchking20k]

I don't think they need to be made into attacks spells necessarily.  But why not just house rule 5lbs/Level or something.  One of my favorite things about RM is that the spells are not all attack oriented.  It allows the GM to build challenges around more than just combat.

[jdale]

These are open lists (both Telekinesis in Mentalism and Essence Hand in Essence), so they are not going to be the most potent. That said, these are force spells so they can affect people. The usefulness of tossing people around is fairly obvious. Even Staying would make it extremely difficult for a person to walk, since walking is pushing off against the floor, and depends on coming back down for the next step. If I was going to increase the capacity of the spells, I would also change them to type Utility to remove that offensive functionality.

Staying in general can be used to hold things suspended in the air, to keep things shut, to prevent a pressure plate from triggering, etc.

[Neee-Wom]

I like the idea of giving some extra boost by level.

Regarding the fact that are open, I agree, but it would be easier to get if there were more potent TK spells as closed or Base lists, I do not think staying would really affect anyone walking at low level (1 or 5 pounds). I'm thinking if the pressure applied over the área as applied to a small area could be really powerful.

About the use to hold things suspeded in the air, only small things, even ignoring Newton 2nd law, at level 12 a magician could not block me throwing my dog to the pool, the pressure plate in Raiders of Lost Ark woudl be ok, but the typical plate like a mine in the floor would require lots of pressure to simulate the weight of a body.

I have to think more about it.

[B Hanson]

Not sure if you have checked it out, but we rewrote Essence Hand for BASiL. Looking it over it, I think it needs to be punched up. Our mentalism lists are more powerful.

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16681.0;attach=3281

[Peter R]

Any spell is as useful or potent as the creative uses you can think of for them.

If you introduce an untested house rule to make this list more powerful what will happen to all the other lists? Will players stop picking other lists and always pick this one? What about existing characters that didn't take this list because it was thought to be under powered but then you switch the list on them?

I am not saying not to do it but you should be aware that every house rule has consequences.

[Neee-Wom]

B Hanson: Thanks for the list, I agree with the fact that some lists should be mixed as the "philosophy" is the same, so bladeturn, tk and open/close is all about a psychokinetic manipulation. But his list seems also low powered.

Peter R: I agree that any spell is as useful as you can imagine, but there must be some conventions about the limits of what you can do. I'm not advocating for a house rule, but writing some examples of what you can do, as the explanation seems poor, I have found in the fórum and old post from another guy that had the same problem as me.

As a matter of fact, I think many spells should have a short explanation or example, section 11 of RM2 Spell Law covered some spells but there is more to do.

[Hurin]

I very much like Brian's list; it brings together a bunch of thematically related spells rather than leaving them scattered across multiple different lists. Telekinesis, Bladeturn/Deflections, and lock/door manipulation all make sense together.

I do also like Neeee Wom's idea of giving some extra boost according to level. So perhaps the Vibrations/Telekinesis spells could be tied to level in this way. For example, instead of having Telekinesis I move an object of up to 5 lbs, the spell could instead allow caster to move an object of up to 1 lb/caster level. That way, Darth Vader can throw cargo crates, while a young and untrained Luke Skywalker struggles to summon his lightsaber in the wampa cave. Wizards could duel by trying to push a floating rock back towards the opponent.

[B Hanson]

I'm going to pump it up to variable weight. Given that a Fly spell can move a 200# person through the air at X miles/hr, telekinesis should be able to handle higher weight allowances.

Curiously, I did have 1lb/lvl allowance in the Mentalism TK spell lists. I think the original thought was in balancing Essence vs Mentalism advantages.

[Witchking20k]

I would think a "crush" spell might be appropriate too.  Something like inflicting an A crush (I recall a Magician list that inflicted crits based on air pressure?)

[Hurin]

I used to love the Forcemage from Companion V. The higher level versions of his 'Forcehand' spell inflicted crush criticals.

There may be other similar spells in the Forcemage lists (I don't have time to check right now).

[Nightblade42]

I do also like Neeee Wom's idea of giving some extra boost according to level. So perhaps the Vibrations/Telekinesis spells could be tied to level in this way. For example, instead of having Telekinesis I move an object of up to 5 lbs, the spell could instead allow caster to move an object of up to 1 lb/caster level. That way, Darth Vader can throw cargo crates, while a young and untrained Luke Skywalker struggles to summon his lightsaber in the wampa cave. Wizards could duel by trying to push a floating rock back towards the opponent.

I think you've got the right idea here, Hurin.  A lb/lvl amount attached to the spell makes sense & your Star Wars example illustrates it perfectly.  Comparing this to the Telekinetics Psion list in SM2, you have the level 3 Psion Mind's Hand which can move one object up to 1kg/lvl at a speed of 0.5m/s with no acceleration.  Though it does state that the Psion does not create enough energy to use it as an attack, there is the level 10 Psion Hurling I that can be used to throw objects as an attack (i.e. the Darth Vader crate attack example Hurin gave us).  Tweaking the spell to mimic the powers of the Psion might be all you need to make it a little more useful.

Nightblade ->--

[Neee-Wom]

I would think a "crush" spell might be appropriate too.  Something like inflicting an A crush (I recall a Magician list that inflicted crits based on air pressure?)

Probably you mean the Vacuum spells, quite useful except in my group there was a blind guy that had no problem casting based on hearing where the action was, affecting also other PC.

Regarding the Force Mage, I like the list and probably I will use it in some way.


Something that I have used in the past, it is the fact that some lists can be low powered because it is the best versión that somebody produced, or copied from an older version, but through research or spell mastery, the lists can be improved, or they can find the original version of the list written in  magical language, where every spell is 50% more potent.

Maybe I will use it again for these lists. 

[Neee-Wom]

During last week I spent some time thinking about these spells, and considering the following:

Staying cannot be applied to strike, you can apply a pressure but lacks momentum to make the same damage as a strike, but using Spell Mastery the spell can be applied in certain areas, making possible to use it as an attack spell (for humanoids or any other species the spell caster knows well).

These effects allows an RR by the target.

              Pressure         
Staying I        1 lb      Mild dizziness
Staying II        5 lb      Pressure on the jugular, after CO/15 rounds passes out, after 8 min dies
Staying III      25 lb      Pressure on the carotid, after CO/10 rounds passes out, after 5 min dies
Staying IV      50 lb      Pressure on the trachea/larinx, after CO/5 rounds passes out, after 3 min dies
Staying V    100 lb      Pressure on the chest, target cannot engage in anything streneous
Staying VI     200 lb      Completely paralyzed and heavy pain unless a Hard ST roll
Staying True250 lb (10xlvl)   Pressure can liquefie a bone

[Hurin]

Nice. Very Darth Vader-y!

[Nightblade42]

I agree.  You've really given the spells an exciting use.  This is great!

Nightblade ->--