Author Topic: Can a Warg Parry? (Read 3820 times)

HawksNut · « **on:** July 16, 2015, 07:55:32 AM »

A question to the other GM's out there.

Can a Warg or other animal intelligent beast parry? A beast with only teeth or claws has no weapon with which to physically parry. Some beasts may have only animal intelligence and may only be motivated by aggression or hunger.

I have always struggled with logic and reason vs. desire to make an opponent a very tough foe for a party of adventurers. In the past I have not given Wargs or other beasts the ability to parry unless they are stunned and only able to parry.

I would very much like to hear others thoughts?

markc · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2015, 08:05:18 AM »

IMHO, parry, is a lot more then just interposing your weapon it is also movement during combat.
The rules state that is is possible to shift you OB into DB to be more defensive in nature.

So in your example above I would say the Warg is growling moving, etc in a evasive manner so as to either not get hurt, assess its target or simply being cautious.
Does that help?

Tommi · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2015, 08:07:13 AM »

No but it can fight defensively.
Although I think that by the rules flee/evade bonus means not attacking I'd allow trading OB to DB up to Flee/evade bonus in 1/2 ratio. Thus FA creature may add up to 15 to DB and attack at -30. I've used this house rule some times.

OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2015, 08:08:37 AM »

Every creature can "parry". It has been mentioned several times, but RM doesn't use "parry" in the English meaning but to mean (as written in probably every version of AL&CL) "placing more emphasis on personal defense than is implicit in the RM combat system, (...) sacrificing offensive capabilities in order to increase one's defensive capability." Also, as (probably) written in every version of AL&CL in the "Parrying" chapter, "such an action is called parrying, though it may be thought of in many combat situations as dodging." The actual wording may differ in the different AL&CL editions, though.

yammahoper · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2015, 09:48:58 AM »

Quote from: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol on July 16, 2015, 08:08:37 AM

Every creature can "parry". It has been mentioned several times, but RM doesn't use "parry" in the English meaning but to mean (as written in probably every version of AL&CL) "placing more emphasis on personal defense than is implicit in the RM combat system, (...) sacrificing offensive capabilities in order to increase one's defensive capability." Also, as (probably) written in every version of AL&CL in the "Parrying" chapter, "such an action is called parrying, though it may be thought of in many combat situations as dodging." The actual wording may differ in the different AL&CL editions, though.

HawksNut · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2015, 10:01:37 AM »

Thank you for your input.

Tommi · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2015, 10:22:26 AM »

If one doesn't have weapon, shield or suitable terrain (like tree or stone) they are not allowed to parry ( #1100,#5520). Animals and most creatures are not characters and don't parry - it needs more intellect. Obviously those try to avoid getting hitted and thus the evade/flee bonus from speed table ( #1100 in p. 33 or #5520 p.134, or in the beginning of C&T and C&M. Arms Laws have a bit different wording compared to monster books).

markc · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2015, 12:49:14 PM »

I did not see anything in the beginning of my CR&M #5540 about what you were talking about (ie animals not being able to shift OB into DB). The table you are talking about is as you say for evading and fleeing as an whole round action action.
IMHO, if you are fleeing you should not get any OB as you are not making an attack, thus you use the table then.

Even if it is not in the book in the past version of ICE it was ruled that animals that were intelligent could and would shift OB into DB depending on their nature. As a Moderator have not heard anything officially from New ICE to revoke that ruling. So IMHO it still stands and creatures can shift OB into DB.

Now as a GM you can rule how you want in your game and specific creatures will not be able to shift OB into DB or they may not chose to. Just what those creatures and limits are is up to the GM and game setting.
MDC

Cory Magel · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2015, 12:52:44 PM »

Quote from: markc on July 16, 2015, 12:49:14 PM

IMHO, if you are fleeing you should not get any OB as you are not making an attack, thus you use the table then.

But you can move your full movement and make an attack in RMU. You get a penalty obviously, but that penalty may be lower than your OB, leaving you OB to parry with...?

markc · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2015, 01:03:09 PM »

In #5520 pg 134, under Animal Statistics it talks about, the ferocity of animals in a very general way. The chat on page 135 talks about how you should adjust an animals base BD based on how it is attacking.
On page 115, section 5.4.3 it talks about parrying and at the end of the first paragraph it says "...though it may be thought of in many combat situations as dodging."

I cannot find you note on "if you do not have a weapon, shield or suitable terrain you cannot parry" comment in my quick search. Can you provide a book page reference?
Note if it is from a RM2 book it has probably been errata'd by old ICE to the RMSS ruling.
MDC

markc · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2015, 01:03:55 PM »

Yes if you make an attack you can use your OB to shift into DB, if you do not make an attack you cannot shift any OB into DB.
MDC

Cory Magel · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2015, 01:10:26 PM »

I can't find anything that says you can't parry without a weapon. It makes sense anyhow, after all how would a Warrior Monk using Martial Arts parry then? Now, a parry penalty might be appropriate when parrying a weapon barehanded...

tbigness · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2015, 01:13:28 PM »

Animals have Natural Weapons so this would not apply.

Cory Magel · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2015, 01:23:34 PM »

That's a bit too broad. An ape has no natural weapons that a human does not. I also have a hard time believing a grizzly bear is going to parry a sword with it's claws.

Witchking20k · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2015, 01:35:07 PM »

The spirit of the parry rule is to offer some form of defensive option to a defender who is aware of and has the opportunity to avoid attack.
If I recall correctly some versions of RM have a lttle chart in them that shows how an Animals Speed is factored in to Initiative & DB....which would make me think the penchant to dodge was already accounted for.
But, the question is specifically about a Warg- so, really, what kind of Warg is it? Does it talk and formulate plans> If so, parry (in the form of evasion) yes. If not, no because it instinctual dodge is accounted for already.

tbigness · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2015, 01:44:25 PM »

At what intellectual level would you credit the ability to parry then?

Cory Magel · « **Reply #16 on:** July 16, 2015, 01:46:54 PM »

Okay, this is a little bit of a stretch... but...

Human domesticated Dog vs a Wolf. I have an Anatolian Shepherd, which are flock guardian dogs from Turkey. They've been bred for a really long time to defend flocks of goats, sheep, etc from predators such as wolves and bears. An Anatolians instinct is to protect the flock from harm to the point of death. A wolves instinct is to get food and live another day. The result is that an Anatolian will utterly go for the kill, while the wolf will react defensively to the Anatolian. While the Anatolians are bigger and stronger, if the wolf fought with the same mindset as the Anatolian it would have a much better chance of killing it, but because it is more concerned with not suffering serious injury (the wolf is more geared towards self-preservation) it has much less of one.

Now, is that the wolves default OB and DB or is it a form of 'Parry?'

Tommi · « **Reply #17 on:** July 16, 2015, 03:57:04 PM »

Direct quotation: 5.4.3 p.115

"He must also have a shield, suitable terrain, or a Melee weapon.
Some weapons may only be used to parry with a certain
percentage of the wielder’s OB."

If one of those demands are not fulfilled then parry is not allowed.
If you classify those three things you see that it says that something to put between you and attacker.
Natural attack is not melee weapon. Nasty expression doesn't qualify for shield. Wags closest thing to attacker is its face - one don't parry with his face. Jumping around without parrying item is not nearly as effective having a shield or melee weapon. That leaves just the evade bonus that is handled in speed chart.

Not being English native I may not understand meaning of words Evade and flee properly... To me those are actions that do not allow attack even with zero bonus.

While I agree with the logic in Arms Law rules as written I've not been happy with the rule from gaming perspective thus I houseruled it (and presented my house rule above).

Cory Magel · « **Reply #18 on:** July 16, 2015, 04:04:07 PM »

The only real problem I had with the parry rules was that it didn't for martial arts users, which was easily fixed.

markc · « **Reply #19 on:** July 16, 2015, 08:10:08 PM »

I my copy (#5520) page 115 5.4.3 3rd US edition, Sept 1994 it says not such thing. Can you give more about the publication information?
This may be one of those times in the past that the rule was changed/altered as various print editions moved from one printing and to print locations to another. In the past there were tables in RM2 Arms Laws that were found to have various different values in different print runs and different countries.
MDC

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Author Topic: Can a Warg Parry? (Read 3820 times)