Topic: Idea: Scaling options for skills

[Bruce]

I started this topic in relation to the discussion on the poll "How many spells do the non spell using professions usually develop?", and per Thom's request.
I think this is a great idea and something that has been running around in my brain for a few years now. Though I was more centered on calling it skill perks or something similar. It is Thom's idea for "Skill Scaling Options", which makes perfect sense.

I have always thought something like the perks system in Skyrim or the Diablo series of games would be interesting to have in the HARP system.
I believe this would help alleviate the lack of any real benefit of developing skills at higher level, i.e. the diminishing returns from higher skill ranks. I also believe this idea has the potential to make some of the less developed skills more appealing which could help flush out a more interesting and well rounded character. But the problem is keeping it balanced and interesting at the same time. It is easy to come up with scaling options for basic combat skills (there are already some in place) and a few others but what about the other non-essential skills?

As I mentioned there are some combat scaling options already in place, the "Scaled Combat Actions" in Martial Law. I like these options but you only get new ones every 20 ranks in a weapon skill. I think they should be spread out a little with the possibility of earlier access to the more powerful ones. Maybe some scaling options could be accessible through the acquiring of specific low cost talents combined with minimum ranks requirements.
Some of these give me a few ideas for scaling options on skills outside of the combat skills.
While we're at it, what about scaling options for talents? It would be a way of developing the higher cost talents through the purchasing of some lower cost talents. Though one would be paying more for the same talent but it would be over time (much like paying interest on a loan payment).

What are your thoughts?

Bruce

PS I am getting ready to try and start a playtest group this friday with a demo of HARP. This is going to be one of the things we will discuss in this group.

[RandalThor]

I like the idea, you might want to give Alternity a look as they already have something like this in place.

[Zhaleskra]

I like the idea, you might want to give Alternity a look as they already have something like this in place.

I almost missed reading your post. Still amused that since Alternity came out right after WotC bought TSR the books call TSR a subsidiary of WotC. Just at random, I'm turned to the Melee Weapons Rank Benefits. These can be added when a character improves a skill, at certain points, making them a little bit like D&D Feats.
Here are just two:

* Resistance Modifier: At higher ranks, any Melee Weapons specialty skill provides an improvement to a hero's Strength resistance modifier. At rank 4, 8, and 12 it improves by +1. (First sentence is quote, second is paraphrase, Alternity Player's Handbook, p. 68)
* Reaction Parry: When a character reaches rank 4, he can attempt to parry whenever a Melee Weapons or Unarmed Attack is used against him. This uses up the parrying character's next action. (same distinction as first example)

[RandalThor]

Alternity was what I was hoping the D&D 3rd Edition rules were going to be, but no such luck. Even with their "problems" I think they are better than 3rd edition.

But what you quote there is what I was referring to, only for HARP I would suggest modifying the ranks requirement. For example, the 4, 8, 12 you have there, I would do as 5, 10, 15 in HARP. (Of course, HARP also doesn't have a "resistance" score, so what the melee weapon skill would grant in HARP would have to be something different - like access to, and/or bonuses to, special maneuvers (ala Martial Law).

[Bruce]

Yeah something like what you guys have posted above. Though if any bonuses were provided they would be circumstantial, for example: At rank 12 in the Two Weapon Combo skill the character has the option of reducing the penalty of -20 when attacking with the off hand weapon or increasing the init modifier to a +6. Every so many ranks another option is available but they would be like skill trees where each has a pre-requisite.

A few things I have considered:
Each profession has a limit to a number of skills in specific categories that receive the ability to be scaled.
Only 1 scaling option per 3 ranks in a skill (maybe higher like every 6 ranks?), along with a max limit of 1 per character level or every so many levels.
Scaled options for below rank 10 would be nothing really special, whereas the options for above 10 ranks are more appealing and beneficial. 
There will be scaling options that will not add or subtract any modifiers and are more for the role playing aspects but are requisites for higher level scaling options.
Using development points to acquire some scaling options.
Some pre-reqs might be specific talents, multiple skills and ranks in those skills, character level requirements, etc....

My Inspirations:
D&D 3rd, 4th, 5th, and Pathfinder with the feat system they have. Though out of all those D&D 5th ed is probably the only one I will play again...
Skyrim and the perks system.... it's pretty cool
Diablo 2 and 3, With the  skill tree system

Adding skill scaling options adds complexity, but they would be cool options.

[markc]

 I am going to use a RMSS: Martial Arts Combat Companion House Rule idea I use.


 In RMSS when using Combat Styles from the MAC, I have a house rule that states you gain abilities based on you skill total not as a lump when you just learn the combat style skill. So the skill learner is constantly evolving in what they learn and even at some points they can pick from a set of things to learn.
 The main problem I have is I have not hard and set fast rules I can provide you besides I use skill total (before items (unless artifact or special in nature)) as a guide instead of skill ranks as I believe some get more out learning in a set time period then others and some learn less. So right now I generally use 60/80 and 100 or 120 as point where I give the option to learn a special combat ability instead of just getting them for free as are the rules as written.
MDC

[jdale]

Bit of a tangent here but I think that's a good approach for RM combat styles, you should expand on it over in the RMU:Arms Law board.

[Thom @ ICE]

From my point of view....

A few things I have considered:
Each profession has a limit to a number of skills in specific categories that receive the ability to be scaled.
Only 1 scaling option per 3 ranks in a skill (maybe higher like every 6 ranks?), along with a max limit of 1 per character level or every so many levels.
Scaled options for below rank 10 would be nothing really special, whereas the options for above 10 ranks are more appealing and beneficial. 
There will be scaling options that will not add or subtract any modifiers and are more for the role playing aspects but are requisites for higher level scaling options.
Using development points to acquire some scaling options.
Some pre-reqs might be specific talents, multiple skills and ranks in those skills, character level requirements, etc....

Limited # of skills that can be scaled? No.  If you have invested the ranks, you can scale it.  Same as with spells.

Limited scaling options?  No.  If you are at a certain skill level (# of ranks) then you have available any scaling options that can be covered by that many ranks, including the ability to combined scaling options (similar to spells)

Degree of "special" for higher ranks - definitely, but there is nothing special about 10 ranks or any other level.  As the number of ranks go up, the scaling gets more powerful - and combining multiple scaling options (multi-attacks, multi-parries, multi-facings, etc) in one attack can give you an incredible action that round, but the scaling costs stack and they bring penalties with them.

DP can be used to add ranks.... once you have the appropriate # of ranks, you have the ability to do the scaling option.  There is no additional cost required.

Pre-requisites?  None.

Now, keeping in mind all of the above, the scaling costs are not going to be cheap, but when fully implemented it allows for that Conan-like character to wade into battle and wipe out multiple foes every round so that there is still value to adding ranks in a skill once the diminishing returns have dropped to minimal levels.  This makes it more beneficial for characters to develop non-spellcasting skills instead of blending into that same multi-profession standard that many HARP characters do once they reach high levels and have all of the talents and effectively max'd out skill progression and have boosted their stats up to 95+ across the board.

[tbigness]

I like the scaling with benefits idea. this can flesh out skills and combat in addition to styles. MAC is a great resource for this in styles anyway. for combat I look at the arms law martial art attacks with multiple foes, multiple strikes ect and put a rank to achieve the ability and use this for fighters at a higher rank requirement. This makes fighters especially beneficial in combat to take a step up from second fiddle to spell casters due to this potential.

[tbigness]

Skills would be fun to see a scaling option on them to. Would make for better role playing IMO.

[Bruce]

From my point of view....


Limited # of skills that can be scaled? No.  If you have invested the ranks, you can scale it.  Same as with spells.

Limited scaling options?  No.  If you are at a certain skill level (# of ranks) then you have available any scaling options that can be covered by that many ranks, including the ability to combined scaling options (similar to spells)

Degree of "special" for higher ranks - definitely, but there is nothing special about 10 ranks or any other level.  As the number of ranks go up, the scaling gets more powerful - and combining multiple scaling options (multi-attacks, multi-parries, multi-facings, etc) in one attack can give you an incredible action that round, but the scaling costs stack and they bring penalties with them.

DP can be used to add ranks.... once you have the appropriate # of ranks, you have the ability to do the scaling option.  There is no additional cost required.

Pre-requisites?  None.

Now, keeping in mind all of the above, the scaling costs are not going to be cheap, but when fully implemented it allows for that Conan-like character to wade into battle and wipe out multiple foes every round so that there is still value to adding ranks in a skill once the diminishing returns have dropped to minimal levels.  This makes it more beneficial for characters to develop non-spellcasting skills instead of blending into that same multi-profession standard that many HARP characters do once they reach high levels and have all of the talents and effectively max'd out skill progression and have boosted their stats up to 95+ across the board.

These were just ideas for balance issues. I suggested the level limits because I am not trying not to get to far away from the standard already set. That is unless the intention is to change that standard.
But the idea of spending DP's to get more scaling was more in line with new talents unlocking unique or "hidden" scaling options. Whereas there would be the talent and anything it may impart but also the possibility of that talent opening up new scaling options.  Which brings into play talents with scaling options, as I mentioned in the 1st post.

One of the things that has always annoyed new players (and was a rule I thought could be changed) was the limited weapon use at first level. That is the first thing new players remark on and I sort of agree with them. I do the like the low cost of the Multiple Weapon Proficiency talent which helps a little but this is something the skill scaling options could replace or add to.

As a side note the spell scaling is unique to HARP (especially the way it is done) and it's what helps set HARP apart from other games. I believe is is something that should be expanded into other areas like skills, talents and maybe even the professions themselves at least as an optional rule.

Bruce

[tbigness]

I think Skills with complimentary skills at a base rank should be used as a new talent. Tracking 10 with Stalking 5 and Awareness 10 = Silent fast tracking +20 to overcome negatives for tracking at greater than half speed while trying to be quiet (hard or Very Hard Maneuver) or decrease the maneuver one level.

or Weapon skill 10 ranks with Sweeps and Throws 10 ranks to give unbalancing attack followed by weapon strike with prone bonuses.

[markc]

jdael,
 I provided the post and example because the HARP boards can be a little slow at times and I simply want to provide some info as to what I have done in the past.
 I have at times in the past provided that info on the RMSS/FRP boards.
MDC

[Bruce]

I am going to use a RMSS: Martial Arts Combat Companion House Rule idea I use.


 In RMSS when using Combat Styles from the MAC, I have a house rule that states you gain abilities based on you skill total not as a lump when you just learn the combat style skill. So the skill learner is constantly evolving in what they learn and even at some points they can pick from a set of things to learn.
 The main problem I have is I have not hard and set fast rules I can provide you besides I use skill total (before items (unless artifact or special in nature)) as a guide instead of skill ranks as I believe some get more out learning in a set time period then others and some learn less. So right now I generally use 60/80 and 100 or 120 as point where I give the option to learn a special combat ability instead of just getting them for free as are the rules as written.
MDC

I missed this post earlier. I agree there should be some kind of rule regarding when people can gain abilities either based on a base skill total or even a certain skill rank requirement. It's been over a decade since I looked at some of the RM companions, probably longer with the MAC. It has lots of skills and abilities I enjoyed back in the day though I thought it added to many new skills to RM at the time (it already had enough!). Some of those skills can be translated over to HARP and be used as scale options for already present skills much like the idea I have for the options in Martial Law. RM has so much great material that with some work can be used in HARP.

[Tommi]

As a side note the spell scaling is unique to HARP (especially the way it is done) and it's what helps set HARP apart from other games. I believe is is something that should be expanded into other areas like skills, talents and maybe even the professions themselves at least as an optional rule.

HARN Master has about the same kind of scaling options (in some skill too). However there are only a few options per spell. IMO HARP did it much better. I even considered running game in Harn / western Lythia with HARP.

[Alwyn]

As a side note the spell scaling is unique to HARP (especially the way it is done) and it's what helps set HARP apart from other games. I believe is is something that should be expanded into other areas like skills, talents and maybe even the professions themselves at least as an optional rule.

HARN Master has about the same kind of scaling options (in some skill too). However there are only a few options per spell. IMO HARP did it much better. I even considered running game in Harn / western Lythia with HARP.

I have a friend of mine who absolutely loves the old HARN stuff.  I played in his games for a while, but I don't remember that much about the system since it has been a few years since he ran a game.  How hard would it be for him to convert his HARN stuff (i.e. modules and such) to use HARP?

[Tommi]

I think that conversion would be easy as much of material is just description. If one plays low level game even skills are about the same: skill master level (ML) and skill bonus are numerically about the same.  HARNMaster is D100 roll under and HARP D100 roll over:  ML 80 or skill  bonus requires same roll. However in HARN effective master level (EML) is normally lower and some NPC stats etc might be readily be presented in EML.  Skills in HM open individually and starting ML might be anything between 20 and 70.  If I was running the game I'd multiply NPC  EML's and ML's by 1,1 or 1,2. Peasants, laymans and yeomans etc. could keep the ML presented e.g. in manor statistics.

Bigger difficulty would be psions and clerical miracles - however even psions could be converted to magics. 

[Bruce]

 Here is something that has bothered me for awhile that I think could be "fixed" with skill scaling options. When it comes to weapons that have two attack types like a bastard sword it doesn't make sense that you have to develop two separate skills to utilize both attack types of such weapons. I believe that the current rule is that they are considered separate categories and therefore do not receive the consideration of "grouped" weapons modifier of only a -20. I don't believe they should not get any negative modifier but it should be about a -10 or no more than a -20. I am not sure if this is an option but I also allow the use of the Multiple Weapon Proficiency (Martial Law talent that is the same as the Multiple Sub skill proficiency but for weapons) with this skill so that one bonus applies to both attack types.

Any thoughts on this?

[Thom @ ICE]

In my concept for scaling skills using a weapon in an alternate technique would have an associated penalty on the attack roll and an additional reduction to the damage delivered.

[Bruce]

But that would defeat the purpose of using a weapon two handed to do more damage. If you are skilled with a weapon well enough the penalty should not be that difficult. IMHO (and some personal experience) it is easier to use a weapon two handed if you initially trained one handed vice the the other way around.
To be even more honest I don't believe it should  be as difficult as it is to be skilled at multiple weapons as it is in HARP. On the flip side games like D&D take it to far by saying things like "they have proficiency in all martial weapons at first level". There should be some kind of middle ground that HARP should be able to fill quite well. Which brings to mind there have been a few perspective players that think the same way, they were tired of D&D's way but did not take to HARP because it was to restrictive.

Yet "Another" idea that has been floating around in my noggin is to add some more starting talents to the professions, like a couple of Multiple Weapon Proficiency's for the warriors and a some level bonuses for mages just as a couple of examples.