Topic: Changing from one profession to another

[tbigness]

In many stories most of the characters start off as a Layman occupation and then get hardened into a class, (Rand Al'Thor the sheepherder, Perrin the blacksmith, Ect...) Even in our own Terry Amthor's characters they are more of a layman who transform into professions or are early in their apprenticeship. Many of the villains have cross-class statistics. I think maybe spending 40-50 DP's to change to another class would be a significant penalty to make players wary of switching classes and forcing them to find a Tutor of significant level to help the change would make it that much harder but play worthy. You could use this as a side quest or a main quest objective.

[markc]

 The problem with RM2 was with the restrictions they placed on classes and they fixed that in RMSS by allowing you to buy any skill with any profession. Lets just say that in RM2 you had to switch classes to do specific things and in RMSS you do not need to do that. You are limited in how you can spend you DP if you decide to do something very against your genetic profile and some GM's will not allow it. (I am thinking about Pulp Adventures low magic rules and spell lists for fighters that are in the 200 DP range, IIRC)
 For SW Terry has said in the past IIRC that he just let NPC's take what ever levels in what ever profession, to make it fit what he wanted them to do. If you do not have a problem with PC's doing that in your RM2 game then you will not like the RMSS rules but if you do have a problem with PC's and NPC's switching profession than RMSS solves that by its skill system.
 A RM2 player once showed me just how bad it could get by allowing profession switching vs non profession switching and how quickly (in his experience) many professions were left by the wayside. 


 In literature many things are possible and at young ages sometimes it is not all that obvious as to just who has what genetic disposition. Also in literature the writer can portray characters in any light they choose and their jobs or their actions can often color our perception of just what their genetic profile really is.
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[MrApollinax]

One way I attempted to manage this issue as a GM - a long time ago, and I'm not at all sure it was a success - was to have prerequisites to changing profession and an enforced period developing as 'No Profession' equivalent to half the level attained in the previous profession.
Say, for example, that a 4th level Fighter wants to take up Necromancy, they have to spend 2 levels developing at No Profession dp costs AND meet the prerequisites involved (which included, I think, 6 ranks in Philosophy: Necromancy, an Open Channeling AND Open Essence list to level 4) and several ranks in Specific Knowledge Lores: Negative Material Plane, Types of Undead and also some sort of surgery skill...something like that, anyhow).

In some respects, the 2 levels of No Profession development facilitated the achievement of the prereqs by making some costs (Spell Lists) easier for the player, but most spare DPs would go towards developing the knowledge-style ranks needed to qualify (whilst the fighter's comparative combat skills dropped back). And there were in-game storyline issues, too...it had to make real narrative sense that a character would take up necromancy or whatever.

The aim was to discourage whilst ruling nothing out. As a deterrent, I have to say it was wildly successful...nobody ever tried it except yours truly with occasional NPCs.

[tbigness]

I have used a similar rule in the past for this. Stats had to qualify for the profession and layman or no professions levels had to be played through. Although I did not have skill requirements and only made it 1 level for the no profession. I like your Idea better and it makes sense that they have to obtain lore based skills of a novice to get the profession.

[Jacinto Pat]

I tend to follow MrApollinax's attitude.  Make them role play it, require it to fit the story arc, and a few levels of no profession to transition will discourage most power gamers from trying to switch.  This leaves the option open for people who's character has really evolved in a different direction.  If a game world involves guilds, religions and so on, additional costs might also be imposed by incorporating their reactions into the story line (the god your cleric used to serve is unhappy with you, your old employer thinks you broke a contract, the wizard's guild is worried about your sharing their secrets to the unwashed....).

[markc]

Jacinto Pat,
  Your example's above fit perfectly with training packages as a mechanism to do what you want to do. I just do not see why someone who shifts his focus from one area to another should completely adjust there skill costs, profession special abilities and profession bonuses.
 Lets take an example in RMSS, and say the GM house rules that you have to take 2 levels of Layman for every category you change (ie pure arms to semi, semi to pure spell, pure spell to hybrid and hybrid to arcane) and 1 level of Layman for every same profession magic type (ie channeling profession to channeling profession).
 So Joe Example (yes his real name)  , starts life as a fighter profession and then after 2 levels he decides to join a paladinic order and serve a deity for 2 levels, then he decides to a ranger profession (still serving his deity) for 2 levels, then switches to warrior mage for 2 levels (still serving his diety).
 So I get fighter 2 levels, switch to semi for 2 levels layman, 2 levels of paladin, 1 level layman, 2 levels of ranger, 2 levels of layman, 2 levels of warrior mage. For a total of Fighter 2, Layman 5, Paladin 2, Ranger 2 and Warrior Mage 2.
 Some of the problems with profession skills can be looked at through the eyes of past discussions with two skills getting conflicting skill adjustments, ie a restricted skill and an everyman skill in two different professions (do a search as there should be quite a few threads on this). A bigger problem is that RMSS/FRP has static profession bonuses (which is the way it should be IMHO) and what you do with them (ie keep them the same as the first profession or use some formula to adjust them) and the biggest is profession special abilities such as the paladin professions bonus to transcend armor skill. Since he still worships the same deity should he keep it or does is somehow just disappear? What about other special priest abilities from the Channeling Comp when priests skill worship their deities but switch jobs (ie monastery monk/priest to warrior priest/paladin of deity). What about special Talents such as blessed by War God in the Talent Companion does that go away for some reason if the PC switches or does not switch professions? Where do the DP go.


 Training packages are just a much simpler way to handle the situation with no adjustment having to be made to skill DP costs, Profession Bonuses, Profession Special Abilities and skill category adjustments.
 The other main problem I can see is DP tracking through out this who profession switching situation and trying to figure out just what skill was bought at what DP cost. Now you could have multiple PC sheets listing each time a skill was bought and at what level for what profession but if you do not do it that way it can be very tough for a GM or player to see if any math mistakes were made.


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[intothatdarkness]

My system doesn't change level bonuses at all. You keep the original ones because I do consider that part of a character's foundational learning process. My groups have never had a problem tracking DP cost changes based on a profession change, and balance hasn't been a major issue either.

And actually I consider training packages in general a workaround for a system that doesn't work well when reflecting player desires. I've also seem them abused. I, for one, won't be using them in all likelihood unless there are significant changes to them.

[markc]

But do you not use RM2 intothatdarkness and not RMSS?
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[jdale]

The more similar the professions are, the less of a balance issue it creates. Paladin and Ranger are really close. You can certainly save some DP but it's not big. Changing realm, especially to or from Arms, is big.

Consider Fighter --> Cleric.
Spell lists cost the Fighter at least 25 and the Cleric as low as 3/3/3. Suppose you spend 5 levels as a Fighter and 5 levels as a Cleric. Buy spells only as a Cleric and you can have up to 15 ranks (well above your level) for a total cost of 45 DP per list. If you had been a Paladin, the RAW way to be a Fighter/Cleric, you could in principle have 30 ranks per list but in practice there would be no point in doing so, you'll probably end up with 10-15 ranks per list anyway. The cost to match the Fighter/Cleric would be 90 DP per list. Typical Paladin will have 3-4 lists, so the Fighter/Cleric has saved 135-180 DP.

You do lose out on PP, because you probably do one want rank per level. That costs the Fighter/Cleric 20*5 + 4*5 = 120 DP, and the Paladin 8*10 = 80 DP, so the Fighter/Cleric is in the hole 40 DP. Still way ahead due to the savings on spell lists.

Meanwhile, Body Development is 2/5 for Fighters and 10 for Clerics. If you only buy BD as a Fighter, you could have 10 ranks for 35 DP. The Paladin could in principle pay for more ranks, but at 4/10 probably can't afford to, so he will likely also have 10 ranks, at a cost of 40 DP. Fighter/Cleric has saved another 5 DP.

For pretty much every skill you don't need at 2 ranks per level, you can eke out additional savings by only buying it in the cheaper profession. You do get in the hole a little bit with weapon skills (and 5 ranks behind), but the savings on spell lists is so huge you're still ahead on DP.

I can see in principle a pure character (including pure arms) becoming a semi or hybrid, but going from one type of pure to another is really problematic, and in my mind also doesn't make much sense. People's interests shift but that is making your aptitudes do a complete 180.

[intothatdarkness]

But do you not use RM2 intothatdarkness and not RMSS?
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We experimented with RMSS (especially the espionage add-on) and found it problematic in those areas as well. We actually had better luck adjusting RM2 than we did getting RMSS to perform adequately. But that's just us. I get that it works for some groups, but I remain very wary of pushing training packages as a "one size fits all" solution when they often are not.

[Jacinto Pat]

Hi MarkC: I don't worry so much about all of the details.  There is a cost to changing professions.  Players get to keep their ranks, stats, and powerpoints but any bonuses, restrictions and opportunities that are specific to a profession go away and the new profession's bonuses and costs come into play.  It's overly simplified, but it really makes the player consider what they are giving up with this change (and usually convinces them not to do it).  Like anything else, a powergamer may try to abuse it, but that's where the story line can be used to place restraints.

I cannot imagine going back after several levels and trying to verify if the DP's were "just right" over the evolution of the character.  As a GM, I look at a leveled up character to "allow" it, and then move on.  As far as the costs charged by the storyline, that depends upon how the decision fits into the campaign and the previous character.  If a Paladin leaves the field and joins a contemplative order in the same faith, I would probably rule that he can keep the "blessed by the war god..  If he leaves or betrays his faith, then the blessing would be withdrawn and the lost DP's would be a consequence of the decision.  Of course that could happen without them deciding to change profession.   

Training packages are great for a character who want's to "branch out" but remain fundamentally the same.  They don't IMHO capture what happens when a religious character loses their faith, or a young action figure settles down and takes up a trade.

[Xaeion]

Usually i admit a change Profession request only if supported by a real good story for the character. To handle the changment the player have to complete the level, gaining xp normally and instead of the new level of his current profession he gains a level 0 for the new one. Then he has to gain the level 1 and only then he has the new profession desired.
The level of the character (for RR and leveling purpose) is oldlvl + newlvl + 1, this because the leveling has to be more difficult for high level player.

[tbigness]

When a character takes on a new profession they continue to add levels as if they never changed... IE a 3rd level fighter changes to be a Cleric will have to take Layman for 1 level then Cleric the next for a total of Level 5. The experience point and levels continue to add on rather than starting off at 1st level for the new profession for experience points. This would be a deterrent for power gamers just do to the XP cost to leveling up the new profession. The character would be a 3rd level fighter 1st level Layman and 1st level Cleric but treated as a 5th level character for all game functions RR, ect....

[Khorah]

We ran into this recently in our RM2 campaign.
Our current method is to allow it. However, you automatically start at half the exp points you had in your first profession (So a magician with 10,000 exp would become an Alchemist with 5,000 exp) and then develop from there. Overall, it works fairly well.
When "I" was GM, I also had their level bonuses begin to shift each level. So as soon as you changed classes, your initial +3/level bonuses when down to 2/level and the new ones went up to 1/level.  I built a spreadsheet around the old character sheets and put in similar skills as well as level bonuses and such, so it wasn't too difficult to make the spreadsheet do the calculations for me.

In general, it is a lot of work, which I would push off to the player. if they REALLY don't want to roll a new character, then they shouldn't mind doing the heavy lifting and putting it together.

[jdale]

We ran into this recently in our RM2 campaign.
Our current method is to allow it. However, you automatically start at half the exp points you had in your first profession (So a magician with 10,000 exp would become an Alchemist with 5,000 exp) and then develop from there. Overall, it works fairly well.
When "I" was GM, I also had their level bonuses begin to shift each level. So as soon as you changed classes, your initial +3/level bonuses when down to 2/level and the new ones went up to 1/level.  I built a spreadsheet around the old character sheets and put in similar skills as well as level bonuses and such, so it wasn't too difficult to make the spreadsheet do the calculations for me.

Doesn't reducing the experience points mean that they then accumulate new levels faster? That plus newly advantageous DP costs seems like it is quite a big boost.

[tbigness]

Here is why this would not unbalance the system given an example of a 12 lvl character with average 2 ranks for class skills and 1 for non class over 4 lvl development as opportunity.

5th level fighter
6th level magician
1st level layman
__________________________

= 12th level fighter magician.

OB 15 ranks
OB 10 Ranks (secondary)
OB 8 Ranks (tertiary)
Bolt 6 Ranks

Spells
7 list varies to 8th lvl
PP 12 ranks


12 Level Fighter

OB 28 ranks
OB 20 Ranks
OB 14 Ranks

Spells
2 list varies to 4th level
PP 3 Ranks

12th level Magician



OB 8 ranks
OB 4 Ranks
Bolt 24 ranks

Spell List 15
Varies form 4- 15th level
PP 20 ranks

The multiple class has some versatility but falls way behind each of the other classes by large margins and may become a weak link in a 12 lvl campaign.

[jdale]

Of course no mixed character is comparable to a pure character in their area of specialty. The mixed character gets versatility. But work out the character, including DP costs, comparing that mixed character to a semi, and in most proposed profession-changing systems the profession change will be superior, often hugely so.

[intothatdarkness]

Doesn't reducing the experience points mean that they then accumulate new levels faster? That plus newly advantageous DP costs seems like it is quite a big boost.

In my case, I leave the XPs as they are but cut DPs in half until they reach their old level. They may get "better" skills costs, but they don't have as many DPs to use. If for some reason a character changes Realms of magic, they're also likely to lose their old lists (based on how magic works in my world)  or not be able to progress any further in them. Since they also have to meet Realm and profession prime requisite requirements, that cuts some Profession changes off before they even start (and PPs also start over...learning to tap into new sources of power isn't easy, after all).

[markc]

tbigness,
 (Is the above example a RM2 or RMSS example?) 
  The biggest problem I have seen in RM2 is the level bonuses and what they can account for. Where as in RMSS the profession bonuses help low level characters become proficient in specific areas and allow them to gain proficiency in others over time.


  You can also see a huge difference in the PP skill between the examples 3 ranks, 12 ranks and 20 ranks which is almost reversed for the weapon OB's for the various professions.


  The Old ICE and Rasyr had pretty much decided on "professions" being genetic templates and not "jobs" or "learning foci" as many games (video/ P&P and everyone is the same) want to do today. But I think we can see from RL that everyone is not the same and it does not take the same effort for a person to learn the same skill and at time it is almost impossible for a person to lean a skill.
 
 Now some above want to include a stat requirement for "profession/job/focus" switching but if your stats provide more DP then you are already getting the extra benefit of being the brightest/more adaptable person.
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[markc]

 Intothatdarkness,
 I had my reply already done before I read you post so I will reply more here.
  Setting rules that work there way through the game design pipeline can be wonderful but not all make the cut at the various stages of design, development and acceptance.
  I (and I am sure others) would be very curious to see all your house rules and how they work together and just how much they differ from stock RM2. As you well know at times if you remove just one house rule your whole house rule system can become a mess.
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