Topic: Lord Research Restriction

[Spectre771]

Hello all,

While rereading Spell Law (RM2) to refresh my memory on the basics, I came across something interesting.

Spell Law pg.27 sec. 9.3 Lord Research:
Lord research can be performed when a Pure spell user of Essence or Channeling (not Mentalism) reaches 25th level and has learned the appropriate list (Symbolic Ways for Channelers or Rune Mastery for Essence users) to 25th level

Why can't Mentalism spell casters do Lord Research?  I read several more pages beyond that and I didn't see any mention why this is so.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Why can't Mentalism spell casters do Lord Research?  I read several more pages beyond that and I didn't see any mention why this is so.

The note afterwards explains it: it's because there's no Mentalism spell list with such a spell and Lord research is a type 'E' portion, therefore one has to choose the appropriate spell lists as a base list, something, in the basic rules, only pure spellcasters can do, and only with list from their own realms.
In other words, how would a Mentalism spellcaster perform Lord research, since there's no way he can know the spell?

[Spectre771]

I didn't realize that note referred to the Mentalist.  I thought that was just a caveat for ANY pure spell user.  I.e.: If you wish to do Lord Research, make sure you can get an E-list of spells and choose your base lists accordingly or you will screw yourself out of this ability.

With the multiple thousands of spells in RM, Mentalism users get burned by not having Lord Research capability?  Is there a balance for this in another manner for Mentalism users that Channeling and Essence users can't do?  The ability to wear some armour hardly seems like a fair trade off for the spell levels we are talking about.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I didn't realize that note referred to the Mentalist.  I thought that was just a caveat for ANY pure spell user.  I.e.: If you wish to do Lord Research, make sure you can get an E-list of spells and choose your base lists accordingly or you will screw yourself out of this ability.

It's more a consequence than a direct note for Mentalist spellcasters. In order to do Lord research, one needs to choose a spell list with the Lord research spell as a base list. Since only pure spellcaster can do so, only Channeling, Essence and Mentalist spellcaster would be eligible. Since one can only choose as an additional base an open or a closed spell list from one's own realm, and there's no Mentalism spell list with the Lord research spell, as a consequence, a Mentalist pure spellcaster cannot have the spell, therefore cannot perform Lord research.

With the multiple thousands of spells in RM, Mentalism users get burned by not having Lord Research capability?

If you use the optional rule that extends the spell portions one can learn, notice that hybrid spellcaster are then allowed to develop type 'E' portions of open and closed lists, allowing a Mentalism hybrid spellcaster to learn thus perform Lord research.

[Spectre771]

It's more a consequence than a direct note for Mentalist spellcasters. In order to do Lord research, one needs to choose a spell list with the Lord research spell as a base list. Since only pure spellcaster can do so, only Channeling, Essence and Mentalist spellcaster would be eligible. Since one can only choose as an additional base an open or a closed spell list from one's own realm, and there's no Mentalism spell list with the Lord research spell, as a consequence, a Mentalist pure spellcaster cannot have the spell, therefore cannot perform Lord research.

Each of those steps makes sense.  I was able to follow that part.
- Need a spell list with Lord Research
- Need to be Pure Spell User
- Need as the base list
- Ability to cast E-Portion

there's no Mentalism spell list with the Lord research spell, as a consequence, a Mentalist pure spellcaster cannot have the spell, therefore cannot perform Lord research.

Makes perfect sense.  I am not familiar with all of the spell lists for all of the realms and I hadn't even gotten to the point of reading through spells and spell lists to notice there was no Lord Research.  I wonder why Mentalists weren't given that ability.

Thank you for the assistance.

[Cory Magel]

If you need an in game reasoning I'd say that Mentalism is the (internal) power of the mind, while Essence and Channeling are more external power sources.  I guess it depends on your point of view about what Mentalism is, but I look at it like psionics... it's not something you are taught, it's something you figure out yourself (it's, literally, in your head), it's not a source of energy like the other realms.

How could you draw mental energy out of something and imbue an item with it?  Of course, if you had an evil mentalist that was taking the mental energy from people (i.e. killing them) you could come up with some interesting items...

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

it's not something you are taught, it's something you figure out yourself (it's, literally, in your head), it's not a source of energy like the other realms.

Why so? For instance, heat is heat and electricy is electricity. Sure, you won't have as much heat from a match as from a bonfire, but heat would still be heat.

How could you draw mental energy out of something and imbue an item with it?

The same way you do with anything else? Once the magical energy is out, it's... magical energy. Yes, electricity isn't produced the same way for hydro-electricity and nuclear but, once produced, it's... electricity.

[Spectre771]

If you need an in game reasoning I'd say that Mentalism is the (internal) power of the mind, while Essence and Channeling are more external power sources.  I guess it depends on your point of view about what Mentalism is, but I look at it like psionics... it's not something you are taught, it's something you figure out yourself (it's, literally, in your head), it's not a source of energy like the other realms.

How could you draw mental energy out of something and imbue an item with it?  Of course, if you had an evil mentalist that was taking the mental energy from people (i.e. killing them) you could come up with some interesting items...

You know, that's a pretty darn good explanation.  I'm sure we could all come up with a myriad of explanations as to why Mentalism doesn't have or why it could have Lord Research.  I like the explanation you came up with, and I'm going to stick with that should the issue ever arise in my campaign.  I don't see that ever being an issue though.  A level 25+ spell caster in RM? Bahahahahahahahahahahahah.     Although, couldn't a Mentalist research one's own mind and find ways to do more incredible things with it?  I would love to see the failure rolls for exploring within your own mind at 25th level, then fumbling a dice roll whilst inside there.  Ohhhhhhhh!  Mentalism Lord Research Spell Failure Crit table, anyone?

A-Crit:  Target is amazed at the complexities and intricacies of his own mind. Gets lost wandering the maze of possibilities. Target is conscious, but only shows facial expressions as he discovers himself from the inside out.  "Waking coma" for 1+1D4 weeks.

B-Crit: Target gets lost in own mind.  Target believes and interacts with the real world as if it were the imaginary one that exists in his mind.  Only a "death" event in his dream world will bring him back to reality. GM should feel free to create adventures within target's mind for him to go through.  Time flows normally for the target within his mind. When he comes out, only a few seconds have passed in the real world.

C-Crit: Target pulls his own essence into his brain and is trapped within the infinity of his thought. Appears to have permanent coma to outside observers but living happily within his own mind.  If target dies in his imaginary world, he dies in reality too.

D-Crit: Target wanders aimlessly through the infinity that is his own mind. Target is in coma permanently.  Only an Evil Mentalist with Lord Research skill will be able to draw the target back to reality.  Target's body ages and atrophies as normal while in coma.

E-Crit: Target sneezes while inside his own mind.  Target believes the force of sneeze destroys vital areas of brain.  Foe convulses violently for 1 round then dies.  Get a tissue.



With that being said, the world that I run is strictly an Elementalism world.  The only magic system/realm/convention is what is laid out in Elemental Companion.  It has enough variation to give the players a good amount of freedom, the spell lists and number of spells are manageable for GM and for the group of newbies whom I am introducing to RM in a couple of weeks, and I absolutely love the approach the writers took with Elementalism.  Besides... GM's prerogative as to what is available in the world and what isn't

Cory, your theory is the one I go with.... until you're killed or I find someone better. *   





*-Starship Troopers....  Just in case someone gets the wrong idea and thinks I don't like Cory.

[Spectre771]

Damn it, OLF!  That's a good idea too.  But given the lack of Mentalism Lord Research in RM, I am going to adopt Cory's theory for now.  I do think that once the essence of "magic" is out there and "exists" then it should be able to be manipulated, just as Channeling and Essence allows the user manipulate those magical energies once they are pulled from items.  There is still the possibility as mentioned earlier, of allowing the expanded research options for spell lists and I did see something like that in Spell Law yesterday on pg. 31 that may allow for it if it ever comes up.  I seriously doubt the group of guys I am bringing into RM will even be considering it for any foreseeable  future.

I'm safe for now.

[markc]

Spectre771,
 Are you using the base magic system because IIRC the RM2 EC has about 10 ideas for where magic comes from, in the back of the book.


 For me the way power is generated has nothing to do with researching or Lord Research but it has been a while since I have looked at the RM2 rules in this case.
MDC

[Spectre771]

Spectre771,
 Are you using the base magic system because IIRC the RM2 EC has about 10 ideas for where magic comes from, in the back of the book.


 For me the way power is generated has nothing to do with researching or Lord Research but it has been a while since I have looked at the RM2 rules in this case.
MDC

Mark, I haven't decided which method I am going to use yet.  The players I am introducing to RM have never played it before but they are hardcore gamers.  I'm trying to balance the volume of information and stats with creative freedom and "grasp-ability."  As they become more familiar and comfortable with the RM system, I'll introduce more intricacies and optional rules.  For now, I'm trying to go with the simplest route for handling a lot of the game play aspects.  I know a couple of the players will challenge and try to be rules-lawyers so I am trying to be pre-emptive by predicting what they may try to catch me on.  I am going to revisit the sources of magical power in EC after I finish up Spell Law.  I've been rereading SL on my lunch break all this week just to get back up to speed.  EC will be next week.

[Cory Magel]

it's not something you are taught, it's something you figure out yourself (it's, literally, in your head), it's not a source of energy like the other realms.

Why so? For instance, heat is heat and electricy is electricity. Sure, you won't have as much heat from a match as from a bonfire, but heat would still be heat.

I'm not sure I understand...?  My premise is that Mentalism is using the power of your mind to effect the world.  Using Essence and Channeling manipulate external power sources other than your own personal mental power.  You can't read a scroll and know how to 'cast' cloaking.  You could be coached by another Mentalism user, but you still have to figure it out for yourself.

How could you draw mental energy out of something and imbue an item with it?

The same way you do with anything else? Once the magical energy is out, it's... magical energy. Yes, electricity isn't produced the same way for hydro-electricity and nuclear but, once produced, it's... electricity.

You can't draw mental energy from rock.

[Cory Magel]

Cory, your theory is the one I go with.... until you're killed or I find someone better. *   

I can kill you with my brain.
(Firefly was better).

[markc]

My understanding was that; (but it has been sometime since I looked up the definitions)
 Mentalism: The PP you generate were from inside yourself, sort of like walking through magnetic lines you generate power.
 Essence: You draw your PP from your surroundings- ie into your body to cast spells
 Channeling: Your deity provides you the power to cast spells


MDC

[Cory Magel]

My understanding was that; (but it has been sometime since I looked up the definitions)
 Mentalism: The PP you generate were from inside yourself, sort of like walking through magnetic lines you generate power.
 Essence: You draw your PP from your surroundings- ie into your body to cast spells
 Channeling: Your deity provides you the power to cast spells

That's mostly how I look at it, although with Channeling I also say if you worship a 'sphere' rather than a deity you can gather the power from the sphere itself (i.e. druid worships nature, that kind of thing).  Mentalism is self generated, Channeling is from belief in a cause or a deity, and Essence is pulled from the general environment (elements).

[Spectre771]

You can't draw mental energy from rock.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  I've known plenty people who were dumber than a sack of rocks.  Ergo, rocks had more mental capacity than the people. 

Cory, you need to hang out with smarter rocks!

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

My premise is that Mentalism is using the power of your mind to effect the world.  Using Essence and Channeling manipulate external power sources other than your own personal mental power.

In the three cases, you're still just manipulating magical energy.

You can't read a scroll and know how to 'cast' cloaking.  You could be coached by another Mentalism user, but you still have to figure it out for yourself.

And? It's the same when it comes to Essence and Channeling.

You can't draw mental energy from rock.

Considering that animalistic considerations would say even a rock has a mind, feelings, a personality, etc., and one can talk with it, one could say that, yes, you can draw mental energy from rock.

[Spectre771]

I love and appreciate all of the input and the great ideas everyone has provided.  I am done reading the "front" portion of SL with the rules, options, charts and I am going to start in on the Spell Lists.  I'm going to read through the ones with Lord Research and see what the wording is and how I can explain the lack of Mentalist access to do Lord Research, but it looks like Cory's theory is going to be the one I stick with for now. 

The new group of guys have never played RM and I doubt they will make it to 25th level to start with as we are already planning a World of Darkness Campaign.  We are throwing a couple of smaller campaigns and mixing up the game systems to give the current DM a much deserved break.  He's been running our current campaign for close to 18 months or more.

If the group does get into RM, then maybe we can burn that bridge when we get to it

[jdale]

I'm not sure it needs an explanation. Lord Research is a spell. Either you have the spell or you don't. If you don't, you have some other spell.

But that said, if you want it in Mentalism, make a new spell list that is similar to Symbolic Ways and Rune Mastery. I suggest the list be about embedding spells in specially prepared crystals, mentally-resonant crystals are a common trope and also fit right in with the idea of breaking down gems for power.

[Cory Magel]

My premise is that Mentalism is using the power of your mind to effect the world.  Using Essence and Channeling manipulate external power sources other than your own personal mental power.

In the three cases, you're still just manipulating magical energy.

But in two of the cases (Essence and Channeling) you're gathering that energy from an external source, not an internal one (Mental).

You can't read a scroll and know how to 'cast' cloaking.  You could be coached by another Mentalism user, but you still have to figure it out for yourself.

And? It's the same when it comes to Essence and Channeling.

Again, I treat Mentalism akin to psionics.  You can't create a magical scroll to cast a Mentalism spell like you could Essence and Channeling.  If anything it would be non-magical instructions that help you learn how to teach yourself... which isn't particularly useful spur of the moment.

You can't draw mental energy from rock.

Considering that animalistic considerations would say even a rock has a mind, feelings, a personality, etc., and one can talk with it, one could say that, yes, you can draw mental energy from rock.

Now you're just arguing from a point of absurdity.