Topic: Channeling Companion questions: the Summoner

[Voriig Kye]

One of my players is thinking of using a Summoner in the next campaign. Most of all the interest is in the less "summonesque" lists: Teleportals and Summoning Circles.
I was having some doubts while interpreting them, so I'd like to know what you think about the following points:

a) Summoning Circles
1) The notes make it clear that crossing the circle implies an RR.  Would the caster be affected by this restriction as well? Could he designate friends to be immune to this rule? Should there be a Spell Mastery roll involved to do it?
2) Even partially breaking the circle cancels it, so what is the advantage of using a "fragile" surface like sand? It is to avoid the wind blowing the circle away? I assume that would also cause the failure.
3) Since the circle can be drawn before the spell is cast, could a Summoner carry a bag of wooden planks with different circles prepared? Is the circle different depending on the spell? Maybe only one plank would be enough, if the spell can be decided later.

b) Teleportals
1) Is the target of a friendly teleportal (no RR) required to walk up to the gate to cross? Or if willing does the spell suck the target in? Also, in the case of the forced gating, does the spell physically draw the target? I'm thinking about things like making a teleportal for an unconscious/stun friend, or making a teleportal for an enemy behind a fire wall.
2) Can the location of the start and destination gates be defined by the caster?  (assuming there is line of vision, of course). I'm thinking about relocating party members to specific places, rather than just bringing them closer. Since the 10' range is not in any of the spell "parameters", what talent/power/spell would you require the player to take to increase it?

If you played or GMed a Summoner, any additional suggestions are welcome as well.

[tbigness]

With Summoning-
-Holds Summoned creature within the circle but not the opposite. anyone can cross into the circle (bad idea). Crossing may cause a break in the circle by disrupting the border material.
-Disrupting the border negates the protection of the circle. The Summoned creature can act normally while duration is still in effect.
-I would limit the material as a GM to portable and permanent placements. IE use of paint or dyes, chalk or charcoal, even candle wax vs. etched surfaces.

Teleportals-
-Target must go through it (dragged, walk, or otherwise). This can be different based on the language of the spell. I would make a call and then use that as a base rule.
-Yes the caster of spells usually defines where or approximate locations that the start and end points are (note: cannot open into solid locations). Use Spell manipulation or talents that extend ranges of spells.

[Ecthelion]

a) Summoning Circles
1) The notes make it clear that crossing the circle implies an RR.  Would the caster be affected by this restriction as well? Could he designate friends to be immune to this rule? Should there be a Spell Mastery roll involved to do it?

Personally I would excempt the caster from the restrictions of crossing the circle. I would only allow him to designate other persons if he makes a Spell Mastery maneuver.

2) Even partially breaking the circle cancels it, so what is the advantage of using a "fragile" surface like sand? It is to avoid the wind blowing the circle away? I assume that would also cause the failure.

I guess there is no advantage to the spell. But perhaps sometimes there is nothing else available.

3) Since the circle can be drawn before the spell is cast, could a Summoner carry a bag of wooden planks with different circles prepared? Is the circle different depending on the spell? Maybe only one plank would be enough, if the spell can be decided later.

I don't think that preparing a set of planks would count as a prepared circle. My understanding is that each circle needs to be prepared on its own. YMMV

[yammahoper]

3) Since the circle can be drawn before the spell is cast, could a Summoner carry a bag of wooden planks with different circles prepared? Is the circle different depending on the spell? Maybe only one plank would be enough, if the spell can be decided later.

blankets or such, even rugs, could be made with a prepared circle stitched into it.  their lairs/homes must be one nasty place to attack.

[netbat]

a) Summoning Circles
2) Even partially breaking the circle cancels it, so what is the advantage of using a "fragile" surface like sand? It is to avoid the wind blowing the circle away? I assume that would also cause the failure.
3) Since the circle can be drawn before the spell is cast, could a Summoner carry a bag of wooden planks with different circles prepared? Is the circle different depending on the spell? Maybe only one plank would be enough, if the spell can be decided later.

I can't remember which book it is in, but I seem to remember rules on how long it took to draw the circle in different medium. IE you can draw it in sand quick and easy but it can be easily broken, vs carved in stone takes a long time but takes serious effort to break.
I also seem to remember an example of a summoner using a rug/carpet with the circle on it. I think your planks would be too big to carry around with the circle size at 1' per level of spell. Based on the descriptions of circle lore, I think you would need a different circle drawing for each different circle spell.

[Cory Magel]

a) Summoning Circles
1) The notes make it clear that crossing the circle implies an RR.  Would the caster be affected by this restriction as well? Could he designate friends to be immune to this rule? Should there be a Spell Mastery roll involved to do it?

I think it does say somewhere that the caster themselves can freely move into and out of the circle.  As for allowing others to do so I think I would, personally, rule that the circle needs to be drawn specifically to account for additional individuals to do this and that those individuals would need to be present at the drawing of the circle.  I would not allow a pre-made stone etched circle to be altered in order to accomplish this.  So, no portable permanent (like the wood one you mention) circle that you get to pick and choose who can go in and out of it.  However, a non-active circle that is made of something easily altered like sand?  I think I'd allow modification to that.  Now, drawing a new circle around another circle in order to modify the first?  I think I'd leave that choice up to the GM. (Maybe make them draw a new, bigger circle, then make a spell manipulation roll?)

2) Even partially breaking the circle cancels it, so what is the advantage of using a "fragile" surface like sand? It is to avoid the wind blowing the circle away? I assume that would also cause the failure.

In the list it states: "Drawing the circle consists of inscribing the circle onto a solid surface; for example, tracing it in dirt or sand (very fragile), drawing it with chalk on stone, painting it on wood, chiseling it into stone (very resistant), etc."

So, the idea is that drawing the circle in the sand or dirt is more of a 'spur of the moment' need.  You can do it anywhere you can get it to inscribe without any preparation or materials and, therefore, have a fragile circle as a result.  If you have all the time in the world to make a pre-prepped one you chisel it into stone obviously.  The various methods of creating a circle are intended to balance convenience vs time required and durability.

3) Since the circle can be drawn before the spell is cast, could a Summoner carry a bag of wooden planks with different circles prepared? Is the circle different depending on the spell? Maybe only one plank would be enough, if the spell can be decided later.

As to the wood, I think I'd allow that.  But you're going to have to go through a lot of trouble hauling around a bunch of wood.  You need an unbroken circle, so you need enough wood to create an unbroken ring big enough for your desired radius.  It seems like this would only be useful in situations where you need to setup a circle quickly in a place fairly near where you keep your pieces of wood.  I can see certain circumstances where this might be useful (a la Ghostbusters-like crew in a certain city?) but in general?  Not so much. (Bag of holding anyone?)

b) Teleportals
1) Is the target of a friendly teleportal (no RR) required to walk up to the gate to cross? Or if willing does the spell suck the target in? Also, in the case of the forced gating, does the spell physically draw the target? I'm thinking about things like making a teleportal for an unconscious/stun friend, or making a teleportal for an enemy behind a fire wall.

You really just need to read through the various Teleportal spells to have your answer on this one.  A portal itself cannot move.  The willing target of a "Teleportal I" must be physically moved through the portal, not the other way around.  However, when you read "Teleportal II" you will see the caster can 'force' one target that he 'knows' to move through the gate.  So the unwilling target must not be restrained to the point that they could not be forced through.  If they are tied to a post, it's a no go.  If they are tied to a rolling office chair, I'd probably allow that, but this might become a GM call on whether the caster is forcing them through via an unseen force, or if they are enticing them to come through of their own accord.  The important thing is the portal itself does not move as this would change the power balance - for example, you could "Teleportal I" a damsel tied to the train tracks if this was allowed, which alters the power balance of the spell significantly.  Now, they can be pushed, tossed or whatever through, but I would not allow someone already on the other side to pull them through. Someone entering the portal can drag the person with them though.

2) Can the location of the start and destination gates be defined by the caster?  (assuming there is line of vision, of course). I'm thinking about relocating party members to specific places, rather than just bringing them closer. Since the 10' range is not in any of the spell "parameters", what talent/power/spell would you require the player to take to increase it?

If you read the 6th level spell the portal materializes within 10' of the intended target and that target is transported to within 10' of the caster.  While the individual can be further and further away from the caster depending on the strength of the Teleportal spell the 10' rule of where the portal appears relative to the target and caster remains 10'.  I think I'd allow spell manipulation or spells that alter the range of other spells to change that.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I can't remember which book it is in, ...

RoCoII, Conjurer's base spell list Circles of Power? Besides, one may just not have the choice. If one needs to cast the spell whilst in the wild, finding a stone surface on which to carve the circle may just not be an option. Not to mention that one can draw a circle on sand/dirt/earth with merely a hard stick (e.g., a wooden stick found near) whereas carving it on a stone surface requires a bit more material…

[markc]

IIRC, there are rules for Circles in the RMSS Essence Comp but I have not had a chance to check on this yet. Also this has been talked about before so if you can find it in the archives it might help you out.
MDC

[Voriig Kye]

Thanks for all the input.

I am assuming so far that the Summoner needs to decide, before drawing, which spell from the Circle list will be used. That means that a lvl 5 Summoner could always carry a 1'x1' wooden board in the backpack, ready with a Circle III modified to allow all party members to be allowed to cross. Then, when the need arises after a battle, all that remains is to throw it on the ground and cast the Circle III spell, ask the party healer to put into it a healing or clotting spell, and done, instant party recovery.
From that scenario, a couple of questions arise.
1) Can anyone cast the "spell" that will be active within the circle?
2) Can the Summoner grab back the wooden board after the duration expires to be used later, again with Circle III, but maybe a different effect spell inside?

Also, I just rechecked all of RoCoII, EssComp and ChanComp, but found no reference to rugs. It would be quite powerful to be able to carry a backpack with, say, A bunch of rugs with the highest Circle spell the Summoner knows. Would you allow them?

Now, regarding the Teleportals and what Cory said about anything affecting the range would increase the 10' distance to the gate endpoints.
So the Spatial Skills talent would increase the distance between caster and target to 100'/lvl +50', AND the distance between caster/target to the corresponding endpoint gates to 60' ?
If that were the case, Spatial Skills talent with Leaving I would allow to transport someone that is initially up to 60' from the caster, to another point 150' away from their starting position? I've always thought that when a spell or talent affected "range", it was meant only to change the Range parameter of the spell, without affecting any other detail in the description. How do others play this?

[markc]

IIRC, spacial talents affect only the spell not the spells effects, so spell distance would be affected and not the endpoints. IMHO to do that you would either a new spell or use Spell Mastery to modify the spell to allow you to do so.
 I would not allow it to happen as it vastly increase the power of the list and it can be quite powerful.


Note: I ran a game where it was an open list for every realm and it was used quite extensively by almost everyone. The party did not get above 8th level IIRC as we moved to a SM:P with the idea that we would come back later to it. Note GM long range plot here was in action, hence the move to SM:P.


As per rug's, I agree that I do not remember there being anything in past books but Rasyr at one time said he thought that you could create magic items that were rugs with the spells enchanted into them. They were not rug's of spell storing in that they contained the circle enchantment but no other spell. You had to cast that once the rug was laid out.
Rug problems:
1) Weight: rugs tend to weigh a lot if you want them to last
2) Durability: Rugs can "break" or be damage through trough use. And IMHO most adventuring is tough use.
3) Magic Cloth: Rugs if you want them to last should be made of magic cloth, silk, metal string, etc for the best durability
4) Damage: How do you deal with rug damage? If as soon as it is damaged then the enchantment goes away then rugs can be very expensive magic items.
5) The GM has to decide on just how much damage it takes and what kind of damage it would take to render the rug inoperable, before letting such an item enter the game otherwise it could cause problems.


I did not look up the spell list yet (busy) but IIRC the caster of the Circle Spell has to cast the spell into it.
MDC

[Cory Magel]

I am assuming so far that the Summoner needs to decide, before drawing, which spell from the Circle list will be used.

This is part of the description of the spells in that spell list, yes.

That means that a lvl 5 Summoner could always carry a 1'x1' wooden board in the backpack, ready with a Circle III modified to allow all party members to be allowed to cross. Then, when the need arises after a battle, all that remains is to throw it on the ground and cast the Circle III spell, ask the party healer to put into it a healing or clotting spell, and done, instant party recovery.
From that scenario, a couple of questions arise.

That scenario is flawed though.  You need a complete unbroken circle.  The summoning circles in that list aren't just a 'symbol' on a piece of paper or something, they are a large circle you create on the ground large enough to contain an entity within it or protect an entity from things outside of it.  A 1'x1' board isn't going to do anything here.  If you want a really small circle, we'll say 3 feet wide, you will need nine and a half feet of boards to complete the circle... and you aren't going to be able 'modify' it.  A pre-drawn carving would either need to be 'permanently' on the wood or, alternately, you'd need to draw a complete new circle on the wood, which would make carrying the wood around a bit of a moot point.  A lenient GM might allow you to have a pre-drawn basic circle which you can add things to on a temporary basis... but you're still carrying around 9.5 feet of wood that is probably at least an inch thick and I'd say at least three inches wide to hold the proper carvings.

Also, I just rechecked all of RoCoII, EssComp and ChanComp, but found no reference to rugs. It would be quite powerful to be able to carry a backpack with, say, A bunch of rugs with the highest Circle spell the Summoner knows. Would you allow them?

My first, and foremost thought, is that you'd have a serious encumbrance problem.  It just wouldn't be very practical.

Now, regarding the Teleportals and what Cory said about anything affecting the range would increase the 10' distance to the gate endpoints.
So the Spatial Skills talent would increase the distance between caster and target to 100'/lvl +50', AND the distance between caster/target to the corresponding endpoint gates to 60' ?
If that were the case, Spatial Skills talent with Leaving I would allow to transport someone that is initially up to 60' from the caster, to another point 150' away from their starting position? I've always thought that when a spell or talent affected "range", it was meant only to change the Range parameter of the spell, without affecting any other detail in the description. How do others play this?

That was just a judgement call on my part.  It's a bit of a grey area.  Spells that increase "range" would technically really only apply to the range implied in the spell stats, i.e. how far an individual is from the caster in the first place.  Some GM's may rule that the location of the portal (10' from the caster and targets respectively) wouldn't be modifiable.  My reasoning is that if you have a spell, skill or ability that lets you modify ranges I would allow it to apply to the distance between the portal and the caster/target.  But, at 10', you're going to have to modify it a whole lot to get much distance out of it. (I'd also require a spell mastery roll too most likely).

You really should read the spell list notes and the description of each spell as that seems to answer a good number of the questions you've had.

[Marrethiel]

Read a book called The Painted Man, it has some excellent ideas on circle law magic.
In general we don't allow things like rugs or paper to be a circle (too fragile to hold all that magical energy) but one player once used a Tower Shield.

[Voriig Kye]

I've been reviewing your answers with the players. Only 2 things remain to be decided:

1) Since Teleportal requires "knowing" the target with the first level spell, could a Teleportal be cast on a Circle or Symbol? The players argue that maybe the caster should always be considered as "known". Or even, that all known by the caster can be considered as known by the Circle or Symbol.
In case of a no, I guess the only way to cast a Teleportal would be to use multi-circle, joining a Knowing with a Teleportal, so the circle would "know" the targets in the area and then be able to gate them.

2)a) If a spell with instant effect, such as healing, is used in a circle, would each person "inside" receive the effect once, OR once per turn as long as they remain inside? Does the same hold for force spells such as vacuum?
2)b) What about spells that require concentration? Would the circle concentrate for its entire duration? Are those spells allowed?

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on these discussion.

[yammahoper]

Spells should have a duration to be cast into a circle.  This can be achieved with a closed essence list for spells that normally do not have duration.  Spell Mastery is also an option.

[Cory Magel]

1) Since Teleportal requires "knowing" the target with the first level spell, could a Teleportal be cast on a Circle or Symbol? The players argue that maybe the caster should always be considered as "known". Or even, that all known by the caster can be considered as known by the Circle or Symbol.
In case of a no, I guess the only way to cast a Teleportal would be to use multi-circle, joining a Knowing with a Teleportal, so the circle would "know" the targets in the area and then be able to gate them.

Your players need a brick dropped on their heads.  An inanimate object cannot 'know' someone, let alone anything, because it's not sentient.  Additionally, the spells themselves designate who and how many people can come through a Teleportal.  The caster can only 'know' one person per level (who must have the spell 'knowing cast on them) for the purposes of the spell.  Also, to bring more than one person through that are 'known' requires the casting of an Enhance Teleportal spell.

2)a) If a spell with instant effect, such as healing, is used in a circle, would each person "inside" receive the effect once, OR once per turn as long as they remain inside? Does the same hold for force spells such as vacuum?
2)b) What about spells that require concentration? Would the circle concentrate for its entire duration? Are those spells allowed?

You're going to have to make a GM call on this.  This might have been a 'miss' when putting this list together.  Basically, the list notes state: "Spells imbedded into circles will either have a duration equal to the duration of the circle spell or the normal duration of the spell imbedded, whichever is greater..."  So, does this apply to spells that do not have a duration?  I'd say no.  Otherwise a 2nd level Circle spell and 1st level open list Heal spell would heal up an entire party in no time and something very powerful, say a "Wish" spell, would potentially grant hundreds of wishes.

[markc]

I have to agree with Cory Magel here, it a series of low Rank spells become much more powerful than higher Rank spells the the list was not designed to be used that way.


To make a healing circle you would make it like you would a magic item and it would function x/day, or x/round or what ever the time period the creator sets.


MDC

[markc]

Ok some points on the Summoning Spell List (from my perspective that is)
1) The spells on the list are designed to work on "summoned" creatures not just anyone who walks into the circle unless the caster has a spell in a circle to aid them "only"
2) All Circles must be dedicated to a "type" of creature.
3) I might rule that the list only works with spells of the Summoners Base Spell list
4) IMHO, Healing and other such "type" spells in a "circle" will hold until they have a target and then cast themselves upon a target. The Spell will hold as long as the circles duration.


In fact could you not see one persons "heal" as another's "harm"? If so then "healing" type spells would follow the same rules as instant attack spells and other elemental attack spells.


Does that help?
MDC   

[Cory Magel]

It's been close to two decades since we wrote the book and I wasn't the primary one that put those particular spell lists together, but a good number of the questions asked really are answered by reading the Spell List and individual Spell notes.  There are obviously some things that need slightly better clarification.  A good dose of common sense and GM oversight helps, but (as any major work) there are still some things that could potentially be abused with even minor leniency in some cases.  I think a good place to start is: Spells that do not have a duration do not gain one via a Circle.

[markc]

"Circle""
 Last night I was watching some Aimee and they had embed magic "circles" into clothing to provide some protection vs spells. Now I do think that would work with the circles list, but I think I would have to allow "hoop skirt" type circles to be valid.
 What do you think?
MDC

[Marrethiel]

"Circle""
 Last night I was watching some Aimee and they had embed magic "circles" into clothing to provide some protection vs spells. Now I do think that would work with the circles list, but I think I would have to allow "hoop skirt" type circles to be valid.
 What do you think?
MDC

That almost sounds like a new list. Textile Wading Ways or something... hmmmm