Author Topic: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal  (Read 3253 times)

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Offline Bruce

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Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« on: October 06, 2013, 03:50:34 PM »
In this topic I will post problems and questions and do my best to explain what I have done and am doing in developing these tables. I have discovered this is not as easy as it sounds but I am progressing. As of yet I have not submitted this to ICE for a future book idea or a Guild Companion issue. The reason being is that I want to make sure everything works good together, is fluid, and balanced with the rest of HARP.
My current project goals:
Note: everything listed here will be optional. You will be able to pick and choose what parts to use in your games.
1. Create a set of combat tables that are more balanced and not as limiting as the original as in HARP Fantasy and Martial Law.
- The tables will have multiple options for crits, one roll (attack and crit damage), two rolls similar to Hack and Slash (separate crit and damage tables), two rolls that reference the RM crit tables (use the appropriate table for crits from whatever RM supplement you want).
- The tables will separate the attack sizes (tiny, small, etc..) so one does not max crit as often on the smaller attack types.
- A simple single sheet (or two) that has everything for damage and crits on it. For those who desire less tables and look ups.
2. Implement an Action Point system that replaces the current archaic round system. I already have one that I created and used in the past, it needs some play testing and tweaking.
3. Create an armor adjustment system that:
-Makes armor wearers easier to hit
-Reduces the damage received from attacks
-Has crit modifiers for the various attack types vrs armor types (e.g. chain vrs arrows, plate vrs unbalancing, etc..).
4. KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid).

Bruce

P.S. Inputs, suggestions, and corrections are useful and welcome!
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Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2013, 03:59:56 PM »
Here are some of my comments in my other topic "Combat tables questionnaire".
The tables will separate each damage size to its own column. The crit charts will be separate (as my HARP group prefers the two roll method) and I am initially planning on using the RM crit charts. I will do my best to balance everything.
I have taken the max damage for each weapon size (tiny, small, etc..) and crit type (slash, crush, etc..). Those numbers will be the max damage at a total roll of "120" on these new combat charts. At this point some may complain that it takes larger rolls to reach the same amount of damage, e.g. a dagger's max damage was reached at an 80 on the old tables, but will be a 120 on the table I am developing. This is for balance issues. Currently the tables will go to "150". After 120 the damage will increase and should be similar to a wrap around effect. Now, the crits will not be as deadly as they are currently up to 120. IMHO it is to easy to kill or be killed in HARP with a death roll at 120 and as low as 110. Higher rolls is a common occurrence in my games so weapon max damage is reached often, resulting in repeating crits.  Besides, since the tables don't have any negative mods based on weapon size then it should be perfectly, at least I hope so.

Currently my tables go up to 150. The normal caps listed in the HARP Fantasy book are essentially the same except the target is reached for all attack types at 120. To break that you would have to roll something special or be using a special maneuver, or you could simply rule as a GM that the max is 150 on the charts. The RM crit charts and armor weakening rules (along with the damage reduction rules based on attack type vrs armor type) will be optional rules that the GM can use if she/he wants. I am attempting to make these tables as customizable as possible.

I am not going for simple, if I wanted that I would stick with the combat tables as presented in the HARP Fantasy book, as they do work well for what they were intended to do. I prefer and some others have indicated they prefer a more detailed (or granular) route. Many people prefer (as my players and I do) the two roll method, one for hits the other for crits.

Currently my tables resemble the H&S tables as the columns are separated by attack sizes (Tiny, small, med, etc..) and the current max results are at 150.
Where they differ is I use the max damage results in the HARP Fantasy combat tables per weapon sizes, at a result of "120" on the tables. So they are balanced with the current HARP combat guidelines only you don't need the weapon size mods on each chart. 
A result of "120" on the tables I am developing is a max damage line but the tables go up to 150 for now. That line can be crossed though I haven't decided on to use the HARP rule of a natural die roll of 99 or 100 to break that or some other maybe easier way to break max method (any suggestions?).
Currently the crits on a result of "120" will indicate the same exact results as in the HARP Fantasy book per weapon type and size (HARP Fantasy; 80 was tiny, 90 was Small, etc..).
For example: In HARP fantasy a dagger's max damage result (25 hits) is the same result at 120 on my tables. The crits will differ a little though.
Also I am using only crit levels "A" to "E" with a # (1,2, or a 3) next to it. For one to reference the simple crit table (like H&S) and also for those to use the RM crit tables if they so prefer. One idea I am toying with is the #'s  next to the crit letter (A1, A2, etc..) will indicate a mod to the actual crit roll on the two roll method.
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Offline Pat

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2013, 09:05:40 AM »
If you wanted to (and I believe armour effects on criticals was mentioned on your last thread) you could add or subtract 10 to the critical roll depending on the armour type. So using Rigid Leather as the base (i.e. no modifier), armour less than this increases the crit by +10 per level and and armour more than RL decreases the crit result by -10 per level.

Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2013, 03:32:18 PM »
If you wanted to (and I believe armour effects on criticals was mentioned on your last thread) you could add or subtract 10 to the critical roll depending on the armour type. So using Rigid Leather as the base (i.e. no modifier), armour less than this increases the crit by +10 per level and and armour more than RL decreases the crit result by -10 per level.
I have something similar planned. A basic modifier to the crit for those that prefer a single roll method and a crit level reduction ("C" to a "B" crit, etc...) for those that prefer separate crit tables. Now I also plan on having two methods for those that prefer two crit rolls. One is much like Hack and Slash, the other uses the actual RM crit tables.

Journal entry: Since I can find no real reason to have the poison crit tables it looks like I will not include them in the tables I am developing.  I believe HARP is the only ICE game that has them. IMHO poison crits are handled through resistance rolls based on the actual poison level and affects used.

Bruce
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Offline Zut

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2013, 12:27:43 PM »
I am interested to know if you have any idea by now about how to handle arrow vs chain mail? Bonus to damage (first chart) or to crit (second chart)?
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Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2013, 01:50:16 PM »
I am interested to know if you have any idea by now about how to handle arrow vs chain mail? Bonus to damage (first chart) or to crit (second chart)?

Well, Each type of armor will have modifiers vrs each attack type, and chain vrs missile (arrows) will be in there. The will table will have modifiers to hits and crit levels. This optional table will be designed to simulate the difference between armor types in Rolemaster 's Arms Law, that is if it works the way I imagine it.

Bruce
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Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2013, 11:29:02 PM »
I am now in the process of adding the actual crits to my tables, and to be hones this is the hard part. The real hard part.
I discovered something about the Hack & Slash Tables. They actually do much more damage than the original HARP Fantasy tables, a lot more damage. If you use the single roll method in Hack & Slash sometimes the damage is out right crazy, especially for tiny crits and especially for the elemental attacks. At this point I am not really understanding why people complained about elemental attacks not doing enough damage. Maybe I got it wrong, maybe they were doing to much damage. I will post this question in another thread to see what people come up with.

Bruce
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Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2013, 02:06:02 PM »
Why does the History channel have to ruin everything?
I'm watching "Going Medieval", and some interesting things are being brought up.
First, fully armored knights weren't as immobile as I thought and most RPG rules imply.
Second, arrows weren't as effective against chain as one would imagine, and even less effective against plate. If one was wearing only chain and not the padding, then yes, arrows were somewhat effective. But if one was wearing padding, the damage that was mostly suffered was impacts,  knocking the knights down most of the time. The drawback was the price of such things. Armor was very expensive.
How would one implement this into the combat tables and still keep the balance? Anyone have any ideas?
The combat tables as they are work fine. But in the "optional" armor mods I might be including this could be an issue for some.
Bruce
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Offline dagorhir

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2013, 03:52:14 PM »
Hi Bruce,

Reality doesn't always work out in rpgs. The padded armor, also known as a gambeson, could stop sword blows and even arrows at range. And that is only some 20 or so layers of linen stitched together. Swords are rather useless on the medieval battle field. They were mostly kept as status symbols. The battle axe and the war hammer were weapons of choice.

They quite literally bludgeoned themselves to death back then.

For rpgs, I found it was best to have to armors either give increasing amounts of protection, either by making it harder to cause damage by raising the difficulty to hit.

Trying to make a balanced system that works like real armor works get complicated and fast. But here's a few tips:

Damaged is not only reduced but changed. i.e. Slash and puncture damaged is changed to crush.
Puncture is always more damaging than slash, because the energy is concentrated on a smaller area.
Range reduces energy on a logarithmic curve. (that's gets really complex).
Rigid offers more protection then flexible or soft armor, no matter the material it is made of.
Crush weapons are highly effective against everything. Axes can be treated as a crush weapon since it is a large weight at the end of a shaft.
Getting hit when not wearing armor is generally deadly as we are rather fragile creatures.

Personally, I rather leave things as they are. It's not about being realistic or having detail, it's about having fun. And I find that Harp does that very well as designed.

Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 07:10:43 PM »
Hi Bruce,

Reality doesn't always work out in rpgs. The padded armor, also known as a gambeson, could stop sword blows and even arrows at range. And that is only some 20 or so layers of linen stitched together. Swords are rather useless on the medieval battle field. They were mostly kept as status symbols. The battle axe and the war hammer were weapons of choice.

They quite literally bludgeoned themselves to death back then.

For rpgs, I found it was best to have to armors either give increasing amounts of protection, either by making it harder to cause damage by raising the difficulty to hit.

Trying to make a balanced system that works like real armor works get complicated and fast. But here's a few tips:
(Tips removed for space)
Personally, I rather leave things as they are. It's not about being realistic or having detail, it's about having fun. And I find that Harp does that very well as designed.
Hey, Thanks!
Great tips by the way and I do agree with you I should essentially keep the rules balanced the way they are.
I have been working on the whole armor type vrs damage/crit type and was caught up in the arrows vrs chain conflict, then I saw that "Going Medieval" show. It made sense. So I don't think I will make chain weak vrs puncture attacks. Though I may take your suggestion and apply it to heavier armor types where the crit can change from a puncture or slash to a crush crit (I was actually already thinking that from the show).

Journal entry:
Damage tables are good the way they are. In the rules I will recommend: if using the tables I put together then it is suggested you change the -5 per PP invested in scaling spells to a -2 per PP.
Optional table for Armor vrs Attack types: Heavier armor will have damage and crit reductions along with crit changes to crushing for some of the crits on slashing and puncture.
I am looking for a linear increase in damage and crit effects (i.e. bleeders, stuns, mods). Though I will probably develop a point system so there isn't an increase across the board. I am thinking: 1 point per point of damage, 2 points per bleeder, 2 points per round of stun, and 1 point per 5 modifier. First to re-develop the tables I have based on total points, then figure the damage and crit effects based on the point totals. Seems like a lot of work, and the question remains, is that much linear progress ok for something like this?
Also working on my action point system: I have recently discovered my rules are very similar to the CEATS rules from RM companion VI, at least as far as determining initiative goes. My AP system worked great for the one group I have used it on so far, but they were all non-experienced gamers. This new group is a much more ideal group as they are experienced players with many years of playing between them. If anyone reading is interested in play-testing what I have so far  in my AP system please PM me.
Bruce
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Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2013, 12:28:51 AM »
The tables are on the back burner for a little while as I contemplate an issue. The issue is: With my house rule to the per PP scaling modifier changed to a -2 (from a -5) are my revised tables needed? The H&S tables do more damage than either the core or Martial law tables (when counting the crits in the one roll method), and my tables will be balanced pretty close to the core books.The tables I am developing will offer a few more options as far as using Arms Law critical tables. So is it worth the effort?

In the meantime my action point system is coming along and I should be actively playtesting that soon. I just need to clarify some rules for my players.

The call is still out there for play testers.

Bruce
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Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2013, 09:33:52 PM »
For those that read this or are interested. I am sorry I haven't posted anything recently. I am entering the playtesting stages for my AP system and shortly there after I will be playtesting the combat tables in my group. Unfortunately we are currently only able to play once a week, at least until we find a place to play.

Bruce
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Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2013, 01:58:09 AM »
Update
The first stage of my combat tables are done!
That is despite the problems I had with formatting in making these not only printable but also presentable in PDF format.
They are in the same format as the tables from Hack & slash, but there are no criticals included yet.
In this stage they work in conjunction with the critical tables from Rolemaster (whatever iteration one prefers).
I did the following tables:Slash, Crush, Puncture, Grapple, Electrical, Impact, Heat, Cold, MA Strikes, MA Sweeps, Large, and Huge.
I figured for the Slaying, Holy, Poison, Acid, and Magic crit tables, one could simply use the actual crit table from Rolemaster with the appropriate attack table for the weapon using the added effect. For acid alone, I would simply use the tiny impact table and apply the effects of the acid from a critical table.
I am asking for playtesters to check this stage out and let me know what they think. But I need to find out from ICE if this is ok as I want to submit this to them as soon as playtesting is done and I don't want to ruin my submission chances to ICE.

So, ICE, what is the rule on this?

Bruce
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 06:11:39 AM »
Since you are planning to submit for publication, it is recommended that you don't publicly post them but sharing them privately for playtesting is fine.  For your own benefit to ensure others don't share them also, it would be recommended that you have a simple NDA signed with the playtesters. 
Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2013, 11:11:45 PM »
It is going to take some time to do an NDA. But in the meantime if anyone is interested in playtesting this please IM me and let me know. If I have people interested then I will schedule more time for this.

Bruce
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Offline Mando

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2013, 12:19:56 PM »
In my current HARP version, I am using 31 attack tables and 16 critical tables (à la "RM Arms Law"). I also included the corresponding 10 armor types. An awful lot of work (I had to translate the whole thing in french while building it). And now, I am trying to check all the remaining rules to make all this compatible. The global math (OB / DB) also has to be checked against the new values. Looks like I still have a good amount of work in the combat chapter, and then the spells... It was very heavy, but I don't regret it: the multiple tables at last provide the huge variation in attack results I was looking for.

If you're going this way, be prepared for some "HARP job" nights :).
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Offline dagorhir

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2013, 04:58:31 PM »
...(I had to translate the whole thing in french while building it). ...

You are a very brave man. That something I dare not do that despite the fact that we play in French.

Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2013, 12:03:05 AM »

If you're going this way, be prepared for some "HARP job" nights :).

I'm actually going the way of the Hack & Slash tables and the RM to HARP combat article in The Guild Companion. I like the way both those work but there are some things lacking and or don't work right to me. I've been checking the damage spread over the different armor types and there is an average that I am working with on my armor modifiers. That will take some time but only because I have other things I do here and there. The primary part of the tables are already done and ready for playtest within my group. I may actually reduce the damage over time as my tables take the damage right out of the HARP Fantasy book up to 120 and expand it to 150 with a simple formula. Even with the added damage from the crit tables it still doesn't get as high as the damage in Hack & Slash with the crits in there.

Bruce
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Offline Bruce

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2014, 03:15:19 PM »
I apologize, it has been a while since my last update. My group has had trouble having any real solid game time in the last two months if not because of the weather but also the game store and other personal issues amongst the group. Because of this there has not been any real playtesting going on. I am planning on moving the game to a new game store that will let us play into the late hours of the night (and beyond) and I am starting a Maptool server for online play. There is a steep learning curve for a GM on Maptool. Thankfully there are (patient) people who are willing to help (starlord64), and it is greatly appreciated. I am not sure how soon I will be able to start the playtest on my AP system as that is something that will have to have a new macro written for in Maptool.
I was almost done with the NDA but my other computer had problems and I had to build and start using a "newer" computer. I still have to go back and locate the NDA on my other computer. So all is well, just simply seriously delayed.

Bruce
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Offline dob85y

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Re: Revised (unofficial) Combat Table Journal
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2014, 08:13:31 PM »
Hi

Ill warn now i have not read the thread in detail, so apologies if i repeat or contradict anything already outlined.
I am running a "homebrew" combat system made up of the ABTP, HB11 attack tables and Martial Law Crit and weapon tables. This was not an attempt to make the worlds most complicated system, rather i wanted a system that rewarded the use or armor (im Australian so the spelling is correct here) and made the choices of armor carry consequences. Added to this i have made a location system that randomly determines the hit location (inverted D100, the ones dice determines the major location and the tens determines left or right essentially)

This boils down to two rolls, one attack (and also determines location) second crit if any (All crits if multiple use the same roll).
To help the flow of the game i have created an EXCEL based calculator that determines the results of the attack and combined critical effect.

At the beginning of each encounter the players roll a combat perception (difficulty varies) to see if they notice any weaker points in the enemies armor (or a normal perception if they spend the round), and allow a "called shot" which is added as a penalty to the OB to adjust the hit location.  They may learn thought the encounter if any specific hits hurt more.

A couple of other combat based touches, stun always means you go last in the round, only really means anything if your trying to do something other than parry.

Regards