Author Topic: How does magic affect your game world?  (Read 6906 times)

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2013, 07:10:37 PM »
Sure. Using magic is one of those "Huh? How'd he do that?" things in much the same way as cooking a 16 lb. turkey in 4 minutes by hanging it in the focus of a military radar.

 :o
I wish I would have thought of that when I was in the Marine Corps!!!  :bang:
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Offline Bruce

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2013, 12:26:05 AM »
Quote
I wish I would have thought of that when I was in the Marine Corps!!!
They've done similar things in the navy.... but no one would eat it, or should for that matter...lol....

On subject, this is exactly where I wanted this discussion to go, thanks people! Though I only asked how it affected the materials in your games, this is the root of the subject.
In every game I have played (including mine) magic is always a mystical force, that many people don't understand, and don't use. But in "reality" magic is a replacement for technology, so how come you don't see "common" household uses for magic? I know it can be explained through the un-played events of, no diseases (black plague), no common hygiene problems of the middle or dark ages (lice, tooth rot, etc..), but to me those are cop-outs or the easy way out. So the question has now morphed to "How to make magic common in a fantasy world without making it "common"? Or to predictable/not mystical enough. 
One way is, what our ancestors considered magic (charms, totems, trinkets, love potions, etc..) and superstitions, is actually real and active magic in a fantasy world. Magic that is used by the common folk. Okay, some people still believe in some of that stuff, apologies if I offended anyone.   :D
In "reality" how many simple shop owners or home owners, or even street people, just might happen to have a small trinket that tells them when active magic is near (e.g. a bell)? Would something like this horribly change the dynamics of the game?
I honestly don't think it would if you apply balance to it. Most of the "magic" like that would be "cantrips" or cantrip like magic. Very basic and doesn't always work as well as it should.
Thoughts?
I know I did, I was just about to write a book on here......
Bruce
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2013, 01:29:05 PM »
[tangent]It would have just been awesome to do.[/tangent]

The main reason we don't see the "real" effects of magic in most game settings/systems is because trying to extrapolate what those societies would be like is very difficult. Also, more importantly, it would make it more difficult for GMs to make adventures/campaign/stories within such settings. Humans definitely tend to take the path of least resistance.

You might want to look into the article about this subject called, The Social Implications of Magic. I am sure someone here can point to its location, as I have forgotten.

Those questions are the same ones I have been asking myself for the last 10+ years, and they don't stop at what magic does to a society (because, like I and others have said, it could just take the place of technology so an almost direct swap could be done), but what does the inclusion of so many threats do? (But that has been discussed before and is topic for another thread.)

The way I look at it with considering a setting based on the Rolemaster rules, is that it would be a little like the [Magic] World at War series by Harry Turtledove. In it, there was a tailor character who used magic to help him do his job, as well as other professions operating like that. Also, the basic weapon of a trooper wasn't a sword or spear or bow, but a magic rod that fired an energy beam and was powered by magic. (They usually got power from a "recharging station", but could be powered through life force - by sacrificing the victim.) There were even huge magical cannons! Now, I am not so sure if I would go so far as to supply whole armies with "magic rifles", but the idea that magic would be used by non-adventurers is one I really like and think is the most "realistic."
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Offline Bruce

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2013, 02:30:39 PM »
Quote
You might want to look into the article about this subject called, The Social Implications of Magic. I am sure someone here can point to its location, as I have forgotten.
Sounds interesting so I looked it up on google. 90% of the search results were about magic mushrooms. The other 10% pointed me to the Guild Companion articles. Are those articles what you were talking about? The articles are a theory on how certain spell lists have an affect on the fantasy world or as the author R. Dan Henry put it "the primary focus is on the commercial or societal use of spells in order to see how they might influence the shape of a culture that employs them".

Is this what you were talking about? If so the articles seem interesting and when I find the time I will go about reading them.
Bruce
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2013, 03:13:52 PM »
Yep, those are the ones. The spells used for the examples are from RMSS. This is the first one, I think:

http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2007/oct/openchanneling.html
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2013, 10:24:16 PM »
Sure. Using magic is one of those "Huh? How'd he do that?" things in much the same way as cooking a 16 lb. turkey in 4 minutes by hanging it in the focus of a military radar.

 :o
I wish I would have thought of that when I was in the Marine Corps!!!  :bang:

When I was in the Navy, the firecontrolmen supposedly did think of that. I wasn't there for it, and you know what they say about sailor stories, so... no bets one way or another on the truth or falsehood of it.

All those examples are quite funny, but I would only want to use something so humorous every once in a while, as I like to keep things a little more serious - there tends to be enough humor floating around the game table.

I'll grant you, that's difficult to avoid. "Splash effects" are, by definition, things that are out of context with local reality. They may or may not be inherently harmful according to the destructiveness of the intended (primary) effect, the amount of power pumped into it, and the degree of failure. But even when they are positively lethal, being by nature improbable events they still tend to be funny to those who survive.

Well, I say that... the dwarf fighter who got polymorphed into a tall, willowy elf chick with rainbow colored hair will probably never really appreciate the humor of it, but there's just no helping some people.

 8)

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Offline Bruce

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2013, 11:06:26 PM »
It might be interesting to see ICE come up with a new field guide, maybe: "Magical societies: A Field guide". It's probably something no other game company has come out with, at least not recently. Or maybe it could be a part of a "Gamemastering: A Field Guide" book....... ;D
But ICE does have more pressing things to get produced and out on the proverbial shelves for now, of which I am highly anticipating.
Who knows if we come up with enough info on here as to how GM's handles magic affecting their game world, we might get their attention.

Bruce
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2013, 05:29:44 AM »
Bruce,
Just to let you know, we do read every post made on the forums and any ideas or concepts that are put forth are considered either for direct ideas or inspirational.  HARP and Rolemaster both have extensive project lists right now, but that doesn't mean we won't consider new project ideas and either put them in queue for future development or if the right person steps up, consider it for immediate development. 
Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2013, 01:16:32 PM »
Quote
I wish I would have thought of that when I was in the Marine Corps!!!
They've done similar things in the navy.... but no one would eat it, or should for that matter...lol....

I'm not gonna make any bets. I get a distinct impression that dodging bullets for a living tends to skew one's definition of "that's bad for you."

Go figure.  ::)
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2013, 01:31:40 PM »
Sure, I am not saying I want to make magic so unpredictable as to be unplayable (I kind of like it somewhat predictable, just also somewhat mysterious) just that the main reason for the regular effects of magic is so that mages can be playable in the game.

Sure. Every GM wants it "somewhat predictable, just also somewhat mysterious." The problem is that should only be mysterious to those who don't use it and don't understand it, it shouldn't be mysterious to the guy who has been using it to make his living for decades now... in the same way the guy who has been a blacksmith for decades knows things the bright young guy with a degree in metallurgy won't find in his books.

It becomes something of a challenge when, as in an RPG, that bone-stupid green-as-grass fighter who "I dunno from magic" and the guy who has made his living from magic for 50 years and has been teaching others how to make a living off it for 20 may be played by the same guy.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2013, 02:02:35 AM »
... in the same way the guy who has been a blacksmith for decades knows things the bright young guy with a degree in metallurgy won't find in his books.
I think this is where we fundamentally depart on how we look at magic; I will not equate magic to a mundane profession like blacksmithing. I think working magic is like always being on the cutting edge of science where there are formulas, but also mysteries and unknowns - even if you have been at it for 4 or 5 decades/centuries.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2013, 08:37:38 AM »
I think this is where we fundamentally depart on how we look at magic; I will not equate magic to a mundane profession like blacksmithing. I think working magic is like always being on the cutting edge of science where there are formulas, but also mysteries and unknowns - even if you have been at it for 4 or 5 decades/centuries.

I'd love that if I could see a way to make it work, but for me it would require the game setting to have fewer spells available at the beginning than at points later in the setting timeline. The reason there are "mysteries and unknowns" at the cutting edge is because the edge keeps getting pushed back. If I have been at it for 50 years, that doesn't mean I'm in the same place as the guy who taught me was when he'd been doing it 50 years. On the contrary, it most certainly means I am not in the same place. His "mysteries and unknowns" were my school problems.

TL;DR - The only way I see to reconcile that is to build a magic progression tree/web of some sort into your magic system for the whole setting, not just for the individual character's career.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2013, 07:55:08 AM »
Why is there "splash"?

Because the caster has chosen, constructed and tested an alternate probability, and meshed it in as perfectly as possible with the reality in which he is standing, in casting time x 2 seconds.

Rush jobs are always glitchy.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2013, 01:16:24 PM »
I'd love that if I could see a way to make it work, but for me it would require the game setting to have fewer spells available at the beginning than at points later in the setting timeline. The reason there are "mysteries and unknowns" at the cutting edge is because the edge keeps getting pushed back. If I have been at it for 50 years, that doesn't mean I'm in the same place as the guy who taught me was when he'd been doing it 50 years. On the contrary, it most certainly means I am not in the same place. His "mysteries and unknowns" were my school problems.
And a master physicist doesn't have anything of mystery to dig into? Sure, the archmage doesn't have the same problems as the novice, but there are still mysteries for such an accomplished magician, it is just that their mysteries are seriously complex, in comparison. And just like a master mathematician today, one can always make a mistake in basic adding and subtraction.

TL;DR - The only way I see to reconcile that is to build a magic progression tree/web of some sort into your magic system for the whole setting, not just for the individual character's career.
Sure, you could do something like that, but it is easier to just build in a certain amount of error into the magic system. Yeah, we all like to succeed all the time like to have the "magic missile" always do X, but with magic not being a science, but more of an art (in some peoples gaming ideology), there should/could be always that problem of the magic going bonkers - especially since the majority of the time PCs will be casting under some sort of pressure/stress. It could also be as simple as bringing in rules like Dark Heresy, where the more power one uses the greater the chance of causing something to happen, including possibly attracting unwanted attention from some nasty outsiders. (To attain great heights, one must risk great falls.)


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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2013, 02:40:27 PM »
And a master physicist doesn't have anything of mystery to dig into?

Sure he does. That's the whole point. The master physicist solves mysteries and teaches the solutions to his students, but there are always more mysteries, so when those students are old masters, they are facing mysteries their teacher never dreamed of.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2013, 08:20:02 AM »
Quote
But in "reality" magic is a replacement for technology, so how come you don't see "common" household uses for magic?

I guess the reason I look at it that way is because I spent so many years working as a wizard, that is, a stagehand.

Think about it. The crew and I show up at an empty, bland hotel ballroom. Over the next day or three we make it over into a magical wonderland. Then the company that wanted it built has whatever function in it, and after they're gone.... we make it all vanish. We take cheap lumber, tape, paint and LOTS of screws, and turn it into the bridge of the Enterprise.... or Rivendell.... or the Temple of Solomon.

So yeah, I use the Arthur C. Clarke definition of magic, and define "magic user" as someone who understands enough "Quantum Reality Theory" to realize his own brain constantly changes reality in tiny ways whether he likes it or not... so for his own safety he may as well learn to be good at it and get the changes he wants. It's just as "magical," but no more, than an old carpenter's ability to drive a 16d nail in a single stroke, time after time. If you don't know how he does it you say "Wow!," but if you do, you just say, "Yeah, and...?"
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2013, 12:20:50 AM »
I believe I've sort of solved Bruce's problem with magic not becoming common with my setting makeup (we use RMSS, but theory is all the same really).

Roughly 20% of the population actually have magical talent, but the vast majority of them just don't realize or admit it.  They are the town healer/doctor who is simply very good at what he does, or the town animal handler that has an uncanny knack for worth with animals, or the nun who gives out 'protection' trinkets, or the 'witch' who makes potions/brews, etc.

Part of the reason the ones who realize they have an 'unnatural' talent stay quiet about it is because, in that world, it is considered unnatural.  There are religions that will hunt you down and kill you if they can (if they found out, or sometimes even just suspected someone of magic use).  They think you are in league with demons and such.

Only the very worldly realize it's as common as it is.  Still, only very limited use (a open/closed spell list or two) is common.  Once you get into Semi, Pure, Hybrid and Arcane users the number gets exponentially smaller with each power level.  So full on powerful wizards openly tossing around lightning bolts make for, literally, legendary figures.
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Offline Bruce

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2013, 12:47:37 AM »
I believe I've sort of solved Bruce's problem with magic not becoming common with my setting makeup (we use RMSS, but theory is all the same really).
It wasn't really a problem per say, I simply wanted to see how people handled it in their games. It was more of a probing question to see if there was a better way.
And I do like how you handle it, I might use some of those ideas for my game.

This topic also led into my theory of how the natural elements and the world around them are affected by magic. This may be a project for me sometime in the future. A few years ago I read a book on the elements and my gamers mind started grinding again... I have tables around here somewhere with all the elements (and their perspective scientific numbers) in it with some suggestions for a magic infused world. Some of our natural elements are actually pretty cool in our mundane world, how cool they would be in a fantasy world........ As a rule the elements aren't all empowered with magic, they sometimes simply react to it in different ways.

Bruce
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2013, 01:24:26 AM »
Part of the reason the ones who realize they have an 'unnatural' talent stay quiet about it is because, in that world, it is considered unnatural.  There are religions that will hunt you down and kill you if they can (if they found out, or sometimes even just suspected someone of magic use).  They think you are in league with demons and such.
I find this way of "controlling" magic-users to be way unfair for the magic-users, and not in the way you think. How on Earth can there be 20% of the population able to do magic - and I am assuming that a certain percentage of that number are full blown magicians, sorcerers, etc... as well as the semis - and they allow such a thing to come to pass? Where they all just absent the day that came up to vote? Can no two or more of them stay within 100' of each other so no unions or cabals or guilds could form? People able to toss fireballs and lightning bolts around don't tend to stay under anyone's thumb for any real length of time, specially if they can come together in any numbers - and would have non-mages working for them, as well.

The only way I see something like this happening for any long period (it could go for a while, but eventually, just like with technology, the oppressors will be overcome) is if the god (or gods) demanding the deaths of mages have an active hand in this and they are just way too powerful for any mage to deal with. Otherwise, you will eventually get some powerful mages who would put together forces of their own and they would go to crush the priests. While they may not win at first, eventually they will, that is the nature of the beast. So, if you have this as part of your world, I assume it is just a certain period of its history. (Though, of course, a GM may do as they wish with their world, it just isn't "realistic" to assume a static society based upon the domination and/or annihilation of around 20% of its population - not for long anyway.)

I guess I just prefer things to be more organic and not so forced or artificial, as that seems to be to me. Also remember, that religions to us seem to be these massive organizations that controls millions of peoples lives, and it is natural to think such would be the case in a fantasy world with actual "proof" of gods. But, I do not think we should be using Christianity or Islam or Judaism as templates for fantasy religions, instead look to the pantheon religions like the Greek and Norse Gods. They held sway over much smaller groups of people, not even known a few hundred miles away - the gods of those people probably didn't like any proselytizing of other gods in "their" lands. In fact, I think the vast majority of gods would be too busy dealing with the conflicts between each other and their clergies to do much about the mages in the world. (Of course, all of this is predicated upon having a pantheon of gods in the first place.  ;D)

One other thing: with all the dang monsters in the world, why would a society willingly decide to throw away what is likely their greatest defense? Sounds like taking away your soldiers weapons when you know the enemy is outside the wire. (But I guess we can chalk this up to human - or near-human -personalities overriding common sense, it happens all the time.)
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How does magic affect your game world?
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2013, 07:38:28 PM »
Part of the reason the ones who realize they have an 'unnatural' talent stay quiet about it is because, in that world, it is considered unnatural.  There are religions that will hunt you down and kill you if they can (if they found out, or sometimes even just suspected someone of magic use).  They think you are in league with demons and such.
I find this way of "controlling" magic-users to be way unfair for the magic-users, and not in the way you think. How on Earth can there be 20% of the population able to do magic - and I am assuming that a certain percentage of that number are full blown magicians, sorcerers, etc... as well as the semis - and they allow such a thing to come to pass? Where they all just absent the day that came up to vote? Can no two or more of them stay within 100' of each other so no unions or cabals or guilds could form? People able to toss fireballs and lightning bolts around don't tend to stay under anyone's thumb for any real length of time, specially if they can come together in any numbers - and would have non-mages working for them, as well.
The vast majority of those using magic do not realize they are using magic.  So the local healer who has an uncanny knack for healing wounds is unwittingly using open/closed healing related lists without actually knowing that's what they are doing.  The vast majority of magic is innate talent which is self-taught in ignorance - they just know they have a 'feel' for what they are doing.

Quote
The only way I see something like this happening for any long period (it could go for a while, but eventually, just like with technology, the oppressors will be overcome) is if the god (or gods) demanding the deaths of mages have an active hand in this and they are just way too powerful for any mage to deal with. Otherwise, you will eventually get some powerful mages who would put together forces of their own and they would go to crush the priests. While they may not win at first, eventually they will, that is the nature of the beast. So, if you have this as part of your world, I assume it is just a certain period of its history. (Though, of course, a GM may do as they wish with their world, it just isn't "realistic" to assume a static society based upon the domination and/or annihilation of around 20% of its population - not for long anyway.)
You seem to be applying your own settings logic to mine.  There's no oppression needed for my theory.  Only the setting driven guideline that the level of magical ability required to be anything more than fairly limited is simply naturally unusual.

Take dragons in my setting for example.  They exist, but they are not exactly common, are intelligent, and avoid being seen, let alone in large population centers, for the most part.  I could go into way more detail, but it's all beside the point (and possible spoilers for those I play with).  The point is the majority of the population see them as mythical.  They've only heard stories about them, second-hand at best.  They aren't quite 'real' to them until they've actually seen one.  That doesn't mean there's some force oppressing them... :)
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