Topic: How does magic affect your game world?

[Bruce]

This is something that has been on my mind for a few years now.
How does magic affect your world? Most people that I have met, like me, assume magic is just an added affect to how we see our world in a fantasy setting. Everything is basically the same; there is steel and iron and wood and other basic materials that are comprised of the same basic elements we have in our world. But honestly if there was magic how would it affect those basic elements? How would the basic materials work differently? For balance and play issues I think there should always be plentiful of the mundane materials and elements. But I think there should be enhanced versions available. Sort of like the fictional "adamantium" woven into a popular heroes skeleton. Take for example the materials presented in Shadow World like Eog and Laen to name a couple.
Here is an idea I had one day while perusing a book on the elements. There are several gases that are affected by different things in our natural world. In the fantasy world those gases might work differently. For example one gas, neon possibly, might be a natural detector of magic, or things from other planes, or demons, or angels. Do you think this would be a cool addition to HARP/Rolemaster?

[VladD]

I feel it is a good idea, but when using common materials, it can get messy. Forexample Neon makes up a fraction of a percent of the atmosphere. So if it is charged by magic to glow (I think that would be the intent?) then everything magical glows... If hydrogen turns blue when orcs are around...orcs glow blue AND people, when near orcs, will turn blueish...

With the other special materials, such as Eog and Lean the trick is: they are rare and not commonly found in the atmosphere or in every living thing. Locked away like that you don't get odd results as I described above. It is a cool idea however and I propose that maybe a Guild Companion article on the subject might contain new gases, fluids and sloids that have special effects, or that certain mixes of gases might react to nearby influences from magic power, or other worldly beings.

[Defendi]

Socially, Howard Tayler (schlockmercenary.com) has the "Donkey Rule." If it becomes easier to do something with magic, on a cultural scale, than to have a donkey do it, it will fundamentally change your society.

[Bruce]

Ok, I'm a dunce..... Most of what I said above is good except for the comment about the metals and such from Shadow World being implemented into HARP. I found them in Martial Law. I could try and say it was because I just recently got the revised version, but I also found them in the older Martial Law book published in 2003/4.

I have no excuse......

[Bruce]

I feel it is a good idea, but when using common materials, it can get messy. Forexample Neon makes up a fraction of a percent of the atmosphere. So if it is charged by magic to glow (I think that would be the intent?) then everything magical glows... If hydrogen turns blue when orcs are around...orcs glow blue AND people, when near orcs, will turn blueish...

True. What about concentrated deposits? Where you would need a certain density of the element to actually have any real affect? Kind of like in the real world. I mean the natural element gases in our world have other effects when applied with certain parameters in a given situation. In our real world we don't see neon gases glowing everywhere we go and we wouldn't in a fantasy world either. Correct me if I am wrong (which I may be) but the affects we see in our world is when you have contained and concentrated amounts of said gases. What I meant from my original post above is that in a fantasy world maybe the elements would react differently, especially to magic. Maybe in a fantasy world the elements are what gives magic its form?

[RandalThor]

True. What about concentrated deposits? Where you would need a certain density of the element to actually have any real affect? Kind of like in the real world.

This was what I was thinking. It could also be how mages are able to Sense Magic, they develop the ability to read these auras, even the normally unseen ones when there specific gas is in such a low concentration. 

[Bruce]

This was what I was thinking. It could also be how mages are able to Sense Magic, they develop the ability to read these auras, even the normally unseen ones when there specific gas is in such a low concentration.

hmmmm...... Your getting my creative gears grinding again. Interestingly enough this would also help explain a lot of " theoretical magical phenomenon" in a fantasy world. Not to mention giving the GM plenty of ideas for plot hooks and what not. Some talents could be described as side affects of overexposure, kind of like radiation exposure, mutations in a sense.
Bruce

[RandalThor]

Oh yeah, I long ago equated magic to radiation (I am a Gamma World junky, so not surprising) and special powers to mutations. But, for the typical fantasy world that did not begin from WW3, magic and its related phenomenon could be attributed to all sorts of natural and environmental factors - just like it has in our world. Only in the fantasy world, there is something else there that is actually the real magic.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I had it that the flow of mana is something you can't see, but if you know what you are looking for you can see its effects. In the same way, if you and a trained and experienced meteorologist both look at the sky, you both see exactly the same thing... but the information you glean from what you see is likely to be vastly different.

[Ynglaur]

I prefer to keep magic, well, magical.  Even to magicians it's part art and part science, so to speak.  Like a blacksmith might understand that burning certain coals while welding iron makes steel, so too a magician might understand that a combination of certain symbols, gestures, and words might result in a certain effect.  That same blacksmith doesn't know anything about carbon atoms, though, and need not to wield his craft.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Fine and good. Nonetheless, you and he can look at the same piece of steel heating in his forge, and the color will tell him a whole bunch of things that it doesn't tell you.... just the same as you and the meteorologist looking at the sky in the example above. The blacksmith probably knows a fair amount of metallurgy... he just doesn't know he knows it, and doesn't call it by that name, because he learned it by watching and doing rather than in a classroom, and learned it at the forge rather than from a book. The phrase "body centered cubic lattice" means nothing at all to him.... and yet he uses his knowledge of it every day.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I had it that the flow of mana is something you can't see, but if you know what you are looking for you can see its effects. In the same way, if you and a trained and experienced meteorologist both look at the sky, you both see exactly the same thing... but the information you glean from what you see is likely to be vastly different.

Examples: When someone who can sense magic looks at a piece of ground and sees a straight line where a plant that is typically found only in high magic areas is suddenly common and lush, fading out to either side both in numbers and health, he considers it likely there is a ley line there. You see the exact same thing, but not knowing its significance, you draw no conclusions from what you see.

Someone who can sense magic looks at a Personal mana spellcaster and notes that his hair does not move with body motion and local breezes in quite the same way as that of everyone around him. Nothing impossible, but less probable than usual. In other words, extremely minor Fortean effects. When he begins casting a spell, the tendency for local items (tree leaves, leaves on the ground, dust) to act in ways not quite natural to the local environment extends itself some distance around him. Say, every tree within 25' loses half a dozen leaves at precisely the same moment. The effect is quite subtle, so if you aren't looking carefully you won't notice it at all (which accounts for the use of normal Perception skill, but at a penalty). Even if you do notice, if you don't have the knowledge which tells you of its significance, once again you draw no conclusions from what you see, while he does.

See what I mean? It has nothing to do with knowing about atoms, or the scientific method, or anything like that. It's just the ability to infer things from what you see that those without your knowledge do not. The basis of it in the case of my world setting is the assumption that all magic of any kind has what I call "splash." That is, any magic alters the structure of local reality to some degree, causing things that are to some degree improbable given the local baseline of reality to become commonplace, in direct proportion to the degree of alteration. In other words, Fortean effects. Since any spellcaster takes care to try to alter reality only to the degree and in the manner he wishes, normally such effects are very small and aren't noticed unless you are both paying attention and know what you are looking for. They only exist at all to the degree the caster's control of reality is less than perfect. However, reality being huge, complex and interdependent, nobody's control is 100% perfect, there will always be unintended consequences of some sort. The trick is being able to spot which is the normal chaos of local reality and which is induced by magic use.

Of course, when a spell fails, all that can no longer be taken for granted. In addition to the "normal" effects of failure listed on the chart, a spellcaster in a temperate forest during high summer who fails a casting may find 50 pounds of snow falling on him out of a tree. The worse the failure, the more improbable the effects will be in context of local reality.

 

Just because it's "magical" doesn't mean it mustn't make any sense. 

[RandalThor]

GOF, what you are describing sounds more like training than anything else. With Magic Sense, it is assumed to be a mystical ability that those without it cannot do (unless they get a temp ability from a spell or item or whatever), not just some special skill they learn. Even with the radiation idea I postulated, it would take someone with the special ability to sense it, meaning they likely have mutated eyes and/or brain. Though, it doesn't need to be explained, and I kind of actually like my magic to be largely unexplainable anyway.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I do treat it as training. Maybe it is "assumed to be a mystical ability" by others... but not by me. To do so I think doesn't make it likely they have mutated eyes and/or brain, it becomes utterly necessary. I say that... it's not absolutely guaranteed to be vision, but yes, there isn't any way for that to work without some form of sensory mutation, especially since the majority of what is nominally the same species do not have that sense.

To me, if it's unexplainable, it doesn't make any sense for it to be consistent and predictable across professions, races and centuries. It works exactly the same way, every time, for everyone, forever, and yet curious researchers will never, ever find the common denominators of how it meshes with normal reality? That one doesn't fit into my head.

But if it wasn't consistent and predictable, nobody would play a spellcaster because they wouldn't be able to rely on their results.

[Turbs]

I had it that the flow of mana is something you can't see, but if you know what you are looking for you can see its effects. In the same way, if you and a trained and experienced meteorologist both look at the sky, you both see exactly the same thing... but the information you glean from what you see is likely to be vastly different.

Examples: When someone who can sense magic looks at a piece of ground and sees a straight line where a plant that is typically found only in high magic areas is suddenly common and lush, fading out to either side both in numbers and health, he considers it likely there is a ley line there. You see the exact same thing, but not knowing its significance, you draw no conclusions from what you see.

Someone who can sense magic looks at a Personal mana spellcaster and notes that his hair does not move with body motion and local breezes in quite the same way as that of everyone around him. Nothing impossible, but less probable than usual. In other words, extremely minor Fortean effects. When he begins casting a spell, the tendency for local items (tree leaves, leaves on the ground, dust) to act in ways not quite natural to the local environment extends itself some distance around him. Say, every tree within 25' loses half a dozen leaves at precisely the same moment. The effect is quite subtle, so if you aren't looking carefully you won't notice it at all (which accounts for the use of normal Perception skill, but at a penalty). Even if you do notice, if you don't have the knowledge which tells you of its significance, once again you draw no conclusions from what you see, while he does.

See what I mean? It has nothing to do with knowing about atoms, or the scientific method, or anything like that. It's just the ability to infer things from what you see that those without your knowledge do not. The basis of it in the case of my world setting is the assumption that all magic of any kind has what I call "splash." That is, any magic alters the structure of local reality to some degree, causing things that are to some degree improbable given the local baseline of reality to become commonplace, in direct proportion to the degree of alteration. In other words, Fortean effects. Since any spellcaster takes care to try to alter reality only to the degree and in the manner he wishes, normally such effects are very small and aren't noticed unless you are both paying attention and know what you are looking for. They only exist at all to the degree the caster's control of reality is less than perfect. However, reality being huge, complex and interdependent, nobody's control is 100% perfect, there will always be unintended consequences of some sort. The trick is being able to spot which is the normal chaos of local reality and which is induced by magic use.

Of course, when a spell fails, all that can no longer be taken for granted. In addition to the "normal" effects of failure listed on the chart, a spellcaster in a temperate forest during high summer who fails a casting may find 50 pounds of snow falling on him out of a tree. The worse the failure, the more improbable the effects will be in context of local reality.

 

Just because it's "magical" doesn't mean it mustn't make any sense. 

GoF i love your idea.. points for you
oh and by the way.. I'm stealing it ..

-edit-
wait..what happened to idea points!?!?

[RandalThor]

But if it wasn't consistent and predictable, nobody would play a spellcaster because they wouldn't be able to rely on their results.

We all know this is an artifact of being a game, players would scream and shout if you enforced a rule that there was a 25% chance of each spell going haywire.

But the way I, not get around this exactly, but try to keep magic somewhat mystical is by enforcing the idea that a spell does what it does because the mage believes that is what it does. They believe this because this is how they were trained. Only through great training are mages able to alter this (i.e. through Spellmastery), and generally only the greatest of mages are able to do that for more than a few spells/spell lists. I like to say that gods are those beings that have come to the complete understanding of this fact, and are able to just work magic through willpower and imagination alone. (Obviously, one of the first things someone of such ability is likely to do is grant themselves immortality.  )

Another way to look at magic as being mystical and not a science (though I am not totally against that idea, it can be fun to) is by just not being able to understand how/why it does what it does. Why does essaence do all the remarkable things it does? If no one can answer that, there is still an element of the mystical there. Though, granted, not a big one, and not one that is likely going to be addressed in the average campaign.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I try to keep magic somewhat mystical, but I do it by using imagery and the concept above. All magic has "splash," and the less perfect your control, the more atypical the splash is likely to be. So if you cast a fireball and avoid the failure range by one point, your fireball works..... and every square inch of your body is now covered in melting frost, even under your clothes.

You cast a spell and have a minor failure, not even enough to lose the PPs or anything, just enough to delay the spell or make you start the casting over.... and find yourself standing in the midst of a gentle rain of 10,000 tiny brass sequins.

 

oh and by the way.. I'm stealing it ..

You're welcome. Hope you have fun with it. It may help if you read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series, particularly the last one, Mostly Harmless, where they go into the idea of "moving along the probability axis" in greater depth.

Personally I think it's entirely appropriate that if someone casts an OMG level spell and fails badly that suddenly there's an infinite number of monkeys wanting to discuss with him this script for Hamlet they've worked out. If the spell is a "world-wrecker" and he fails badly, I think it's entirely appropriate that the sky that night glows faintly from the atoms of his body heating as they leave the atmosphere.

 

[GrumpyOldFart]

"Caster's skin turns bright, intense _____(pick a color) fading into full intensity over the course of (# of PPs invested in the spell) minutes. Color then fades back to normal over the course of (# of PPs invested in the spell) hours."

The idea is simple, but it takes some practice to get comfortable with it. Imagine something that is no more improbable in the context of normal reality than the spell effect the guy was trying to create. When you consider how unlikely you are to ever see someone have a flame spring from their fingertip, that is sufficient to light a pipe pr a campfire, and will burn your fingers but doesn't burn his... and then stop and think about just how low level and dirt simple an Ignite cantrip is in the context of the game... really, you have all the latitude to let your imagination play that you could possibly ask for.

 

The roll for the spell (plus mods) is directly proportional to the perfection of the caster's control over the primary improbability for which he was aiming... and inversely proportional to the amount of uncontrolled incidental effects. A really well cast spell is not just one that creates the fireball, but avoids creating all kinds of other stuff you don't want.

But if it wasn't consistent and predictable, nobody would play a spellcaster because they wouldn't be able to rely on their results.

We all know this is an artifact of being a game, players would scream and shout if you enforced a rule that there was a 25% chance of each spell going haywire.

It is, but is that all it is? In RL, would people consistently continue to use something that they couldn't rely on their results? The game mechanic is there because it's in human nature, no?

[RandalThor]

All those examples are quite funny, but I would only want to use something so humorous every once in a while, as I like to keep things a little more serious - there tends to be enough humor floating around the game table.

It is, but is that all it is? In RL, would people consistently continue to use something that they couldn't rely on their results? The game mechanic is there because it's in human nature, no?

Sure, I am not saying I want to make magic so unpredictable as to be unplayable (I kind of like it somewhat predictable, just also somewhat mysterious) just that the main reason for the regular effects of magic is so that mages can be playable in the game.

But back to the main point, I would say magic affects a game world (mine and others) the same way technology affects our world, but making otherwise impossible things, possible. Phones = telepathy, cameras = clairvoyance, planes = fly spell, etc...

[GrumpyOldFart]

Sure. Using magic is one of those "Huh? How'd he do that?" things in much the same way as cooking a 16 lb. turkey in 4 minutes by hanging it in the focus of a military radar.