Topic: Circle Mastery and Circle Lore

[chippermonks]

school of hard knocks states:

If essence companion is being used, an essence caster can produce a circle even if he doesn't know the spell being imbedded if he has studied another spell caster's circle.

If the circle is produced, does it require spells to activate? or is the circle innately powered by the symbols used to produce it?

Does this mean if the parties mage comes across a circle of sleep, can he learn how to produce the circle of sleep, without having to know the circle mastery spell list and/or the appropriate sleep spell?

If so, how does this affect circles from another realm? if the same mage comes across a circle of protection, after studying it can he now produce a circle of protection, despite its divine nature?


secondly, the Circle Mastery spell list of Essence companion is very vague as to who casts what spells:

Circle 1: allows up to a 1st level spell to be imbedded into a prepared circle. the spell to be imbedded into the circle must be cast within one minute after the circle spell

After the circle is drawn, the circle spell is cast (as well as any imbedded spell.)

It seems to be implied that the drawer is the one producing the spells for both the circle and the imbedded spells (just like spell store), but vagueness leaves a lot of wiggle room, especially with SoHK description of how circle lore works.

[chippermonks]

Ah, one more thing I forgot to ask:


There is nothing stating that the circle needs to be visible (ie: can be under a rug, or behind a tapestry, etc) but the question my player asked me was if there were any modifiers because of it.

I had personally ruled that light materials such as carpets would not hinder the spell, nor would relativly "thin" layers of wooden floor. I also opted to base the "yay or nay" of the circle working on the realm of the spell, and the type/amount of covering.

ie: 2 circles under a 100 pound iron sheet hinders the mentalism circle less then the essence circle.

But then he asked a question which stumped me for a while....

"what about 2 inches of glass?"

In the end I chose to handle types of glass separately (if hard metals like aluminum fluxes were used, then it recieves full "inorganic metal" penalty, while flat quartz based glass only receives a partial penalty)

Thoughts on my rulings on glass coverings? Thoughts on covering circles at all?

[arakish]

Wished I could help.  I always used the guidelines for Circles as presented in RoCo2 or RoCo3 with the Conjurer.  I never really liked the Essence Companion stuff that much.  If you have them available, perhaps look at the guidelines for the Conjurors list Circle Mastery.

rmfr

[markc]

 IMHO the casting of the spells after the circle spell must be the same caster.


 The answer to the question of "The caster has studied the circle of another and can reproduce the circle even if they do not know the spells being cast" is that I would treat it as Ritual Magic.


 I like to also look at the Perimeter Warding spell lists in Castles and Ruins for notes, the spell lists start on page 170.


 Other then that I think you are going to have to make some House Rules to cover how it will work in your game.
MDC

[providence13]

These are good questions! I'd like to hammer out some ideas if you don't mind.

"If essence companion is being used, an essence caster can produce a circle even if he doesn't know the spell being imbedded if he has studied another spell caster's circle." SoHK, pg 46.
1. If the circle is produced, does it require spells to activate? Or is the circle innately powered by the symbols used to produce it?
  IMHO, the text means you are copying mark for mark, another caster's magical circle at that power, level and ability including any mistakes. Maybe the mod could be the same as learning "x" lvl circle spell. SoHK. Perhaps you can't get better than the original circle roll. SoHK, pg 47 or even a DR harder. In your Sleep example, the caster isn't learning to cast Sleep. He's learning to cast this specific Circle of Sleep. Also, this will go towards the limited number of circles they can cast.

Maybe you don't know all the spells that went into the circle, but it should require the same amount of PP that went into the original. I think copying an unfamiliar circle is incredibly risky.
What if you're completely wrong about the Circle Lore? Casting a circle blind is like clicking on a link asking if you want to scan your computer for viruses. You have no idea what that link is going to do.
About imbedding Other Realm Spells, I'd go with the Attunement rules, SoHK, pg 39. Different Realm -30. Spell unknown -10. Add up all the mods. It's a place to start.

I would definitely make the drawing of circles to be Power Manipulation roll and not Lore Magical.

2. Who casts the spell?
  I would allow more than one caster to work on a magic circle. Although it could get complicated, I see it as little different from a team of crafters making magic items; which I allow. Everyone is rolling so the chance for failure is greater but teamwork could allow greater effects. If you want a single caster/circle, so be it.

3. There is nothing stating that the circle needs to be visible (ie: can be under a rug, or behind a tapestry, etc) but the question my player asked me was if there were any modifiers because of it.
  EssCo pg 99, states that "all effects extend to the full area regardless of obstacles". It sounds as if nothing will prevent the effects, so I don't see any mods at all.
If you want to have organic/inorganic mods, then so be it.

For Truenames and circles, do you use the mods for Summoning creatures? Circle Lore, SoHK  says it helps but doesn't give a mod. EssCo pg 20 gives a +20 for Truename summoning. Seems to fit.

[MariusH]

I must admit that I don't really know what you're talking about with your first question, but I have very clear opinions on the other two:

2) Who casts the spell? I'd say the spell to be imbedded should be cast by the same mage who cast the "circle" spell. If that also has to be the same mage who DREW the circle, is another matter. But he should at least be able to draw the circle in order to cast the "circle" spell (that is, the circle should not have a too large radius).

3) Does the circle have to be visible? Well, the effects of the circle extends beyond obstacles, that much is clear. However, circle spells are touch spells, so there can't be anything between the mage and the circle at the time of casting. So I'd say no rug at the time of casting - at least not on the part of the circle the mage touches. As for behind a tapestry - I may remember wrong, but doesn't the circle have to be on a horizontal surface?

Also, I'd say that you can draw circles in advance, and cast the spell when desired. This allows you to be well prepared in your home, for example, even when attacked by surprise (since drawing the circles tends to take a very long time).

I have another question, though: How high above and deep below the circle should the effect extend? This can be of vital consequence. Let's say I draw a circle in the 2nd floor of a building, and someone crosses that on the 1st floor. Are they effected?

[providence13]

I've always considered circles to encompass a sphere. So effects extend above and below the plane on which its drawn. But that's just my opinion.

[markc]

I've always considered circles to encompass a sphere. So effects extend above and below the plane on which its drawn. But that's just my opinion.

+1
MDC

[chippermonks]

I see many kinds of circles dependent on the form/function of a circle.

Ie: a circle of protection demons designed to keep a summoned demon inside of the circle, I would probably handle it as a half circle. any other method and the demon would be able to dig into the floor and damage the circle. anything short of solid metal or stone floors would be inadequate (and in many cases, still wouldn't be enough)

For the more general circles like say: Circle of Haste. I would consider it to be a radial sphere.

For a circle of Cancel Channeling drawn into the foundation of an atheist city, I would consider it to be more of a pillar with extraordinary high/deep walls.

so basically, it all depends on the circle!

[MariusH]

Well, a sphere is perhaps the more natural thing to think about. But consider, then, "small" circles: The edge of the sphere would go through someone standing inside the circle! The same is true for larger circles, if you stand close to the edge. And we all know that crossing such cricles are bad (you risk taking lots of hits, and if you're inside a circle radiatind some negative spell outwards, you'll be effected by that spell as well). Perhaps a cylinder is more appropriate, ranging something like 2x the radius upwards and downwards?