Topic: Creatures & Monsters - the s stands for...?

[Jinor]

Creatures & Monsters (RMFRP #5802) page 8 has this to say about the "s" after a creatures DB.

"This defensive bonus does not include any shield bonuses, but certain creatures may be capable of using a shield or the equivalent of a shield. If a shield is normally used, an "s" is included after the creatures's DB entry."

My group had a major argument about this because English is not anyone's native tongue. The question was about an orc's DB which says 30s. Does this marking mean the orc's DB value already includes a shield bonus or is it meant for the orc to have a base DB of 30 plus a bonus from a shield?

This might seem like a silly question, but my fellow players and I would appreciate to know the truth.

[providence13]

I think it is not worded clearly. To me, it sounds like the DB does not include a shield, but a shield is often used. So add a shield in addition to the DB listed.

Most of the humanoid races have the s with DB. Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Orcs, etc. all have DB between 20 s and 40 s. For RMSS/FRP you get 3x Qu bonus for DB. I think the listed DB is average for the race of that level. With Qu and a shield, it should be higher.

But (!) shields add +20 to +30 DB vs melee, depending on size..
It would be nice if someone else described how they played it.

For "unaware" DB, I always use the Speed Chart from C&M pg 7. Here it lists the initiative bonus for a creature of that speed. So I take away the DB bonus if they can't use DB. This may still leave the creature with some remaining DB; toughness.

[Defendi]

I'm pretty certain S means the shield is included.  I've seen it on a lot of creatures I wouldn't expect to have a non-shield DB, like the above-mentioned dwarves.

[JimiSue]

I agree with Defendi. That rule clearly says to me that if there's an s, then the creature usually uses a shield, and I would therefore assume that the listed DB includes it. Remember that the book critters are average examples of their race so they won't have much in the way of exceptional stats. And without a high QU it's really tough getting increases to DB.

[providence13]

Most of the creatures I listed above are Medium Speed. This is a base of 10 DB already factored into creature stats. This coupled with a shield would be close to an average of their DB.
So, I'm sure you guys are correct. But the passage doesn't eschew obfuscation. 

[rdanhenry]

It says in so many words that the listed DB does not include a shield bonus (which cannot be determined until the type of shield is determined, so that makes sense). Yes, the DBs do sometimes seem rather high, but the stats given as "creatures" have little to do with what one gets if one actually makes them as "characters". As for Dwarves, I would expect them to have a DB bonus from the superior quality (and likely material) of their armor. Perhaps Orcs have the same advantage (they don't make lovely things, but they are very competent as making effective tools of war).

[jaranka]

What rdanhenry said.  And the OP quoted it right there. "This defensive bonus does not include any shield bonuses." The "s" simply means they'd probably have a shield also.

[Jinor]

I would assume the basic rulebook and C & T used similar methods to create an orc. In the former an orc has a DB of 10 with AT 1 and in the latter 30s with AT 8. If one uses a normal shields value of +20 knowing a lesser orc's base DB is zero, it brings the two orcs together rules-wise. It makes very little sense to have a 2nd level orc with a base DB of 30 when his base DB is zero according to C & T. The sentence before the part I quoted earlier says about the value, "It is given for that creature's average quickness and may need to be adjusted in exceptional cases (see Speed Chart above)." Again I don't see a slow orc of having a tough hide and/or armour of +20 to bring his natural DB to 30.

[jaranka]

Orcs may be slow in the head, but I don't think they're slow in battle.  Orcs are mad warriors.  Anyone who plays a fighter knows you need to be quick to dodge those attacks, and growing up as an orc doesn't afford the luxury of ignoring that skill.  Not only are they quick, but they often wear light armors that allow them to make the most of it.  A 30 DB plus a shield bonus is perfectly reasonable.

I can see dropping the DB some if they wore heavier armor, but you could also go so far as to make that orc a full fledged character and do it all proper.  What you see in C&M is an abbreviated orc, with very simple stats to get things going without too much hassle.

[providence13]

Foe Elves and their high DB, the "s" is for sucks. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2t1Nh0J_38&feature=related

[JimiSue]

As for Dwarves, I would expect them to have a DB bonus from the superior quality (and likely material) of their armor. Perhaps Orcs have the same advantage (they don't make lovely things, but they are very competent as making effective tools of war).

The trouble with this approach is that if the players are seeing low level monsters with superior quality and/or more effective gear, they are going to want to wear that gear once the critters are defeated. Always be careful what you equip your NPCs with, because sooner or later, the PCs are going to end up carrying it.

Orcs are mad warriors.  Anyone who plays a fighter knows you need to be quick to dodge those attacks, and growing up as an orc doesn't afford the luxury of ignoring that skill.  Not only are they quick, but they often wear light armors that allow them to make the most of it.  A 30 DB plus a shield bonus is perfectly reasonable.

I don't agree with this. Your logic is that they get the DB because they are quick at dodging - by that logic you need to give them a quickness bonus (which represents ability to dodge effectively) sufficient to push their natural DB up to +30. Otherwise you're giving the monsters an unfair advantage - I find players get very upset about arbitrary bonuses that other creatures have that they don't which can't be justified in the rules.

I would assume the basic rulebook and C & T used similar methods to create an orc. In the former an orc has a DB of 10 with AT 1 and in the latter 30s with AT 8. If one uses a normal shields value of +20 knowing a lesser orc's base DB is zero, it brings the two orcs together rules-wise.

This says it best. The math works. Which means the 's' means that a shield is equipped.

[jaranka]

I don't agree with this. Your logic is that they get the DB because they are quick at dodging - by that logic you need to give them a quickness bonus (which represents ability to dodge effectively) sufficient to push their natural DB up to +30. Otherwise you're giving the monsters an unfair advantage - I find players get very upset about arbitrary bonuses that other creatures have that they don't which can't be justified in the rules.

That's exactly what I'm saying.  It's the C&M version of a quickness bonus.  If you notice, none of the creatures in C&M have any of the 10 stats you'd see in a fleshed out character.  It is only meant to represent (predominantly) quickness in a quick and convenient way.  Really, just look at the paragraph that explains it.  Some snippets:

"This defensive bonus does not include any shield bonuses"  - it doesn't get any clearer than this.
"It is given for that creature’s average quickness" - it doesn't get any clearer than this.

Everyone is free to play however they wish and appease their players however they feel is necessary, but I really think this is rather clear and fear you might be giving your players too easy a time.  That number really is the creature's quickness, just under a different name.  I'm sure you have at least 1 player with a +30 quickness bonus to DB.  This is no different.

[JimiSue]

"If a shield is normally used, an "s" is included after the creatures's DB entry."

*shrug* it works both ways. This says if a shield is normally used an s is given on the DB. As an s is given on the DB, for me, that means a shield is being used in order to attain that DB.

[JimiSue]

Oh, and I actually don't have a player with a DB that high. My main game is SM2 so the numbers are worked out differently (e.g. 1xQU bonus but the stat bonus is higher), but since the last thing the PCs faced had an OB in excess of 180, I'm not sure that counts as going easy on them!

(OK yes they were not meant to fight him, but they chose to do so and did actually win.)

[Jinor]

I found my answer from RMFRP page 61 where there is a master character table T-5.8. It says there "s=includes shield bonus". Same logic for this and C & M so I am content.

[Marc R]

s, includes shield bonus, usually +25 "Full shield"

[providence13]

I can see dropping the DB some if they wore heavier armor, but you could also go so far as to make that orc a full fledged character and do it all proper.  What you see in C&M is an abbreviated orc, with very simple stats to get things going without too much hassle.

+1

For my games, I'm going with this.
The stats in the book are for the average creature.
If I add up 3x racial Qu bonus, with at least +5 quality armor and a shield, the numbers don't always match for me. But you can make them fit.
For the most part, my critters are stat'd. But sometimes you just need some quick numbers right then and there. That's what my book stats are for.

[Marc R]

I have dropped the shield, when it makes sense.  ..so the S notation helps, to let you know it's there.