Author Topic: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving  (Read 3770 times)

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Offline kevinmccollum

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2012, 01:38:28 PM »
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So far, from what I can see, one or two here use the rules for stat deterioration, but their players always stock up on Lifekeeping and Preservation, so Lifegiving is never necessary (and it would probably be useless if they tried). The rest seem to not use these rules at all, and either ignore them completely, or make their own rules...

I have never thought to do other than use the rules as written. A careful group, with the appropriate classes, rarely has to worry about stat deterioration. (a couple rounds at most). Just waving it away doesn't promote better play.

the only people who have to worry about it is your fair elf, high elf and the other odd races with very low soul departure times.

Offline bpowell

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2012, 03:36:13 PM »
Hmmm...mental stats being reduced to 0.  In the real world we call those people...
"politicians".


Offline MariusH

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2012, 03:50:10 PM »
Kevin: Your groups probably always has a Cleric, or make Lifekeeping or Preservation is easily available (so you're among the first group mentioned in my last post). That's not always the case in our games. Also, even if it is (as I assume it is in your games), that still makes Lifegiving completely worthless, just as I pointed out.

bpowell: Perhaps that's where all ressurected people end up! Creepy...
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2012, 03:58:10 PM »
I don't think the stat deteriation rules promote better game play.  In fact, I think they suck.  To arbitrary.  If its a mechanic to balance the over powered elves, its a lousy attempt.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline kevinmccollum

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2012, 05:24:35 PM »
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If its a mechanic to balance the over powered elves, its a lousy attempt.

Heh, no, it is the penalty for dying. you can come back but maybe not as able as you were before. Why does everyone seem to think there should be no penalty for dying? (well, not everyone but an apparent majority)

And arbitrary? yeah. so are all of the rules. the game was put together by a bunch of people and they made certain decisions.

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2012, 06:13:12 PM »
Yet most game mechanics are based on a certain level of fact or measurable data.  How fast physical and mental traits deteriate after being dead and then raised in completely unknown, so unlike most of the game rules and mechanics, it IS completely arbitrary, and as a long term GM and player, arbitrariness doesnt fly at my table.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline kevinmccollum

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2012, 07:36:17 PM »
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How fast physical and mental traits deteriate after being dead and then raised in completely unknown, so unlike most of the game rules and mechanics, it IS completely arbitrary

No more so than saying high steel gives a +10 bonus, mithril is +20, etc.   Or that a stat of 100 gives a +25 bonus.

How would you handle death and dying? Poor fella, you died, you get rezzed and you are fine? or lose a con point (1st/2nd edition AD&D) or lose a level (3rd edition)? I like what they do in RM. Does it force someone to take a healer in many cases? yes. I have yet to see a group that doesn't have some form of healer. Need to invest in some herbs to handle deaths? sure.

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2012, 08:39:30 PM »
How do I handle it?  We discuss it, like adults, and decide on a case by case basis what should be done, penalties suffered, etc.  I also have a built in rule for gaining stat loss back when it occurs; 8 dp for a single roll on a single stat.

Quite often, I ignore it.  I don't feel the rule adds anything to the fun of the game, nor the drama.

And, as for high steel, mythril, whatever; there are very real grades of metals in outr world.  It is obvious the game rules are based on those real world facts (that some metals are superior and have diferent qualities than others).
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline markc

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2012, 10:03:08 PM »
 If the rules as written do not work then pick a base time that works for you and create a new table. If you do please share it here or on the Guild Companion.com as I am sure people will want to see what you have done. In fact it may become the new normal for many games.
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Offline pastaav

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2012, 12:42:03 AM »
For the record I think the correct way to handle "you were dead for a while, poor you" is that the character comes back with flaws and not clunky stat mechainics.

If you think about it is clear that the reason we are stuck with the stat loss rules are from two reasons:
1) is that the talents and flaws was not part of original game and ICE designed these rules when the game was little more than house rules for AD&D. There was just stats and skills and in that scenario stat loss is better alternative.
2) is that these rules are used very infrequent and for most game groups it fits better to say "okay you are dead/out of commission for a while, make a new character" or "you come back good as new so we can get on with the story" than to spend time roleplaying the boring recovery needed after a severe accident.

Probably there might be some need to develop additional flaws that match different traumas that might happen during near dead/ dead sequences, but at the root of it I would say it is simple. When serious accidents happen you should consult a trauma table that tell what flaw you might have acquired. If you are dead for long then you get a massive number of flaws since you must make many trauma checks. Combine these with rules for recovery by magic or DP and then you would have something that both works better game mechanics wise and fits reality better.
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Offline DangerMan

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2012, 05:04:38 AM »
Hmm.. Let's say the cleric arrived just too late and the poor guy's soul only left the body minutes ago, wouldent lifegiving save the day?

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Offline MariusH

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2012, 05:53:20 AM »
It would indeed, Maeglin. But why bother with Lifegiving TRUE? And why give the Lifegiving spells ability to raise dead after as long as a year? Lifegiving I should be MORE than sufficient for such cases.

Kevin: I'm not against penalties for dying. Nor am I against "So you died, now you're resurrected, let's continue". One could also play "The PC died, make a new one", and ignore any Lifegiving at all. I just like rules to be consistent, that's all. And I want a reason for, and a use for, the Lifegiving and Lifegiving True spells.

We played a low-magic setting without any chance of Lifegiving once. Now, we play in a high-magic setting. However, the party has very poor healing capacity, and base their healing on getting their wounded to other healers after serious injury. But when a character died, and they managed to get him to a cleric (well actually - oh, never mind the details, let's just say it was a cleric...), he got a nasty surprise when he discovered all temporary and some potential stats were at zero, so he was actually in a coma - a PERMANENT coma, since his POTENTIALS were zero.

The problem is that the "Life Mastery" spell list (which actually includes an example of raising a dead person after two days, with a recovery period of 200 days, as well as having an absolute limit of one year) is inconsistent with the "Stat Loss" rules under "effect of Death". Also, the text in the spell uses "days dead" frequently, indicating that whoever wrote it expects this spell to be cast on characters who have been dead several days.

I'll think about how I'd want this to be. Probably different depending on the setting. But a recovery period of 100 x period dead IS a decent penalty for dying (it gets better for better Lifegiving Spells, though). Combine this with the fact that the chance that Lifegiving will actually not work AT ALL increases with time dead (it's already quite low if you have a low Co stat, except for Lifegiving True), this should be sufficient to make any character more than cautious.
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Offline kevinmccollum

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2012, 06:37:58 AM »
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The problem is that the "Life Mastery" spell list is inconsistent with the "Stat Loss" rules under "effect of Death

I find it perfectly consistent. It allows for the preservation of the body (preventing stat loss) as well as allowing one to keep the soul in the body (removing the need for a life giving) and even provides herbs that mirror those spells.

But you are correct in that if you allow a corpse to DECAY for a long period of time, it will be pretty messed up when you try to put a soul back into it.

Rolemaster is probably the least forgiving of the systems I have played as far as "bringing someone back from the dead" and I'm quite content with that. If I wanted a less gritty system, I would play D&D or some other gentler system.

Offline MariusH

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2012, 07:20:49 AM »
If you find this to be consistent, I would like your comments on what I actually claimed to be inconsistent - the description of the "Lifegiving" spells and the stat loss. I have no problem with "Preservation" and "Life Keeping". But if you can read the description of the "Lifegiving" spells and explain to me how this is consistent with the "Stat Loss" rules, please do.

The only reason _I_ can see for "Lifegiving True", is if you had a mid-level Cleric cast "Preservation" on a body which the soul just recently left, for several months (allowing "Preservation" spells to be cast in succession), before finally getting the corpse to an extremely high-level Cleric with "Lifegiving True".

As I said, I have no problem with unforgiving systems. We have played without any chance of lifegiving, and that was fun too.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2012, 10:17:29 AM »
I've always wanted Lifegiving I to be -10/min dead. This would keep to more real life. A crash cart could then be able to effectively cast this spell.

Lifegiving II could then be the real powerful magic; -10/day dead.

Lifegiving III and the rest are as read.

Life Keeping could be bagging/injections and Preservation is inducing a coma.

All of this is conjecture; it's not my field of study.

In my games I do implement the rule that certain spells are granted by different Powers related to the Deity and not all can grant the entire List.
This assumes a Lesser/Greater/Major deital relationship in the game world.
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