Topic: Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving

[MariusH]

Hiya!

We had one of our PCs die in combat recently. The rest of the party, lacking sufficient healing power, dragged the corpse to a powerful being who owed them, and this being was able to cast "Lifegiving". However, We then took a look at the "Stat Loss" table. So, this guy had been dead for around one day, with no "Preservation" or "Life Keeping". Sure, "Lifegiving" would bring him back to life, but all of his stats, and even some of his potential stats, would be 0!. How to handle this? Before checking this, I always assumed that Lifegiving would bring you back with a minor penalty, but this seem to not be the case. Does this make "Lifegiving" near pointless? I mean, if you have "Preservation", you most likely have "Life Keeping" too, which means "Lifegiving" wouldn't be necessary, just the healing of the wounds.

Are there any way ho revive a person AND his stats? Are there any way to get a revived persons stats back (including potential stats)? Any feedback on how others handle this would be welcome :-)

[yammahoper]

livegiving has a recovery period.  The lowest level is around 100x time dead (or 100 days in your instance).

There are herbs that recover stat loss.  The party can go get those. 

Also, there is a cleric spell, level 19 restoration, that can help restore the mental stats.  The spell reads recovery of lost exp, but we have always played it as recovery of mental stats (since there are no spells in RM that drain actual exp points).

Heal Life Essence can restore lost Co.

Another option is to allow the stats to recover a little all on there own as the raised PC rest.  This could be done by allowing stat gain rolls equal to half their level, spread out over the recovery the same as negative mods are recovered over the time span healing requires.

Those stat loss rues are very harsh.  I've known many GM's that ignore them, a few that used them to express when someone was beyond raising.   

[MariusH]

Thanks for the reply. I was aware of the recovery-period, which in my opinion is a suitable penalty/punishment.

I suppose some herbs could restore stat losses, but could they restore even potential stats? They will drop, and even reach zero, not very long after death (a day or two, I think).

The spells you mention could be tweaked as you noted, although it is not how they are described inn the book. Being very strict, one could argue that "Heal Life Essence" only restores Co-loss due to contact with undead (Co lost this way is regained much faster then other forms of stat loss), but it wouldn't be stretching it TOO far to include other Co-loss as well, I guess. I thought about Restoration, but like you said, as written it only restores exp. points. Anyway, I don't see any of these spells restoring lost POTENTIAL stats. There are also plenty of stats that are not covered by either of these two spells.

There are several options of handling this through "house rules", of course. I guess many do, as you also state. I would like to know how you people DO handle death and lifegiving. Do you use stat loss, and if so, how do you allow it to be repaired? Or do you ignore it and simply use the "recovery period"? If going RAW, I really don't see any way to revive a PC to playable status after a day or more of being dead. Am I missing something? Do all your parties have characters with Preservation and Life Keeping spells to prevent this? If so, do you ever need "Lifegiving" at all?

[markc]

 I use the RAW and players try and keep Herbs with the Preservation and LifeKeeping properties on hand or try and buy items with those properties. Even if they have a PC who can cast the spells they want a back up in case he/she/it goes down.


 As to stat loss again I use RAW but I do think there are some herbs in GM Law or somewhere else that has some stat regain. If not then maybe a good new spell list would need to be created that repaired specific types of stat loss, but not all stat loss IMHO as some should not be repairable.
MDC

[providence13]

How long can you keep up CPR and bag them (force air into the lungs)?

Being dead a day is a long time.

[kevinmccollum]

Also, there is a cleric spell, level 19 restoration, that can help restore the mental stats.  The spell reads recovery of lost exp, but we have always played it as recovery of mental stats (since there are no spells in RM that drain actual exp points).

Restoring mental stats only applies to the evil mentalist list. If you extend it to the temporary stats that drop due to death, then any first level character would spend money on having that cast on them to reach their potential right away (and any child of a rich lord/noble/merchant would have maxed stats)

And their are spells that drain xp. again, check the evil mentalist list.

Another option is to allow the stats to recover a little all on there own as the raised PC rest.  This could be done by allowing stat gain rolls equal to half their level, spread out over the recovery the same as negative mods are recovered over the time span healing requires.

I can't speak on RMSS but in RM2, stats recovered at the rate of 1 point/stat/month.

Once you start losing potential stats, well, those are your new potentials.

[arakish]

How long can you keep up CPR and bag them (force air into the lungs)?

Being dead a day is a long time.

According to what I learned in the USNavy, CPR is only good for about 5 minutes.  After that, the brain begins to suffer damage due to oxygen deprivation.  Thus, if the person ain't revived in 5 minutes, CPR won't do much good.   Although I have heard of persons reviving after 15 minutes of CPR and being OK.  Just use best judgment.

rmfr

[kevinmccollum]

Are there any way ho revive a person AND his stats? Are there any way to get a revived persons stats back (including potential stats)? Any feedback on how others handle this would be welcome :-)

Here is one of the first questions I ask a new group: Intelligent undead, can they learn and become more powerful? Specifically, can a ghost learn?

Why ask this? If the answer is yes, then intellect resides in the spirit, not the body and you can restore a persons mental stats. If they answer no, they will probably pay for it with reduced mental stats somewhere down the road.

I don't make it public knowledge in my games but massive brain damage could be repaired with a brain regen and maybe some powerful ritual spells (Remember the Star Trek movie where they restore Spock's "soul" to a new body?)  Just my 2cents. Otherwise, by the rules, start rolling a new character.

[markc]

How long can you keep up CPR and bag them (force air into the lungs)?

Being dead a day is a long time.

According to what I learned in the USNavy, CPR is only good for about 5 minutes.  After that, the brain begins to suffer damage due to oxygen deprivation.  Thus, if the person ain't revived in 5 minutes, CPR won't do much good.   Although I have heard of persons reviving after 15 minutes of CPR and being OK.  Just use best judgment.

rmfr

 I agree and if you can keep the body cold there is a much higher chance that they will recover. I think you can do a search on "reviving people in cold water" or something like that if my Google Fu is off.
MDC

[markc]

Are there any way ho revive a person AND his stats? Are there any way to get a revived persons stats back (including potential stats)? Any feedback on how others handle this would be welcome :-)

Here is one of the first questions I ask a new group: Intelligent undead, can they learn and become more powerful? Specifically, can a ghost learn?

Why ask this? If the answer is yes, then intellect resides in the spirit, not the body and you can restore a persons mental stats. If they answer no, they will probably pay for it with reduced mental stats somewhere down the road.

I don't make it public knowledge in my games but massive brain damage could be repaired with a brain regen and maybe some powerful ritual spells (Remember the Star Trek movie where they restore Spock's "soul" to a new body?)  Just my 2cents. Otherwise, by the rules, start rolling a new character.

 IMHO yes ghosts can learn but it is by a different process than normal life learns. So the brain damage does matter until something is done about it or they are powerful enough to overcome that limitation. This is not an official rule in any way, shape or form.


MDC

[MariusH]

I see several posts here comparing the "Lifegiving" spell to CPR. In my opinion, you're not actually dead if CPR can work. If you're REALLY dead in "real life", then that's it - you're gone, nothing can bring you back. Also, comparing spells to "real life" like this can lead you down a rather bizarre path in many ways - better not. So, I'm more concerned about what the spell actually can do. And by the book, you're actually able to cast "Lifegiving" on a person that's been dead almost a year, although in practice that probably requres "Lifegiving true", but still. And so the question is: WHY? Why make a spell that can do this, when anyone who's been dead more than a day or so has all potential stats dropped to zero, and so is beyond repair anyhow? Does the spell have any use at all, besides fixing "absolution"? Makes me wonder if it's even the same people who made the "Life Mastery" spell list and the rules for what happens when you die.

The "can ghosts learn" question is interresting. But then again, some undeads can be created by magic, and that's what keeps some of them going (those created by necromancers, anyway) - and that's why some undead (again, those created by necromancers) can simply be dispelled. Still, an interresting question. Is it the body which carries the stats, or the spirit? And with a wide range of healing spells, is seems awkward that you can heal all sorts of damage to the body, but once it's dead, stats like strength and agility drop like a stone and can't be brought back to what they were. If the body is the problem, surely some "Muscle Law", "Blood Law" or "Nerve Law" spells should not have any problems fixing this? After all, there are spells to join lost limbs, or even make the grow back. As for "mental stats", could not the same be said if you can actually cast "Brain Regeneration"?

[pastaav]

Restoring mental stats only applies to the evil mentalist list. If you extend it to the temporary stats that drop due to death, then any first level character would spend money on having that cast on them to reach their potential right away (and any child of a rich lord/noble/merchant would have maxed stats)

Another interpretation you can draw is that the whole idea of stat drain is messy and broken. A character who has reached a stat of one has a penalty of -10 to -20 to his actions depending on how many times the stat is involved in the skill. If you ask me this is a penalty that is totally out of synch with the "character being almost dead", it is IMHO also out of synch with the bookkeeping needed to calculate the effects of the lowered stat.

Instead I use the following house rules:
Life drain

*undeads life drain, being sick and being dead does not change the constitution but instead affect the life level of the target. The life level describe how healthy the character
is and is a independent value from the actual stats.
*life level is 75 modified by constitution bonus of the race

*penalties from life level apply to all actions and is three times the life level loss, example: a life level loss of 50 would give the target -150 on all rolls. An almost dead character has a penalty of around -225.

*When a target reach 0 in life level he dies
. If resurrected he is it a penalty until he has recovered back to good health.
*life levels can be regained by magic, herbs and rest (natural healing rate is 1 lifelevel of each day with activity and 2 lifelevels of each day of rest) 
*curses and sickness may limit on how many life levels that can be regained.
*growing old means the natural life level of the character lessens. This means the character can suffer less sickness, curses, life drain before the character dies.

[kevinmccollum]

We are not talking stat drain here but the effects of stat deterioration due to death.

[pastaav]

We are not talking stat drain here but the effects of stat deterioration due to death.

The difference between stat drain and stat deterioration eludes me. IMHO they are both using the same cumbersome and bad rule mechanics.

[yammahoper]

We are not talking stat drain here but the effects of stat deterioration due to death.

The difference between stat drain and stat deterioration eludes me. IMHO they are both using the same cumbersome and bad rule mechanics.

I agree the stat lose rules after death are bad, mostly because they strike me as absolutely arbitrary.  Why the losses listed after the time spans listed?

The rule itself is a neat idea, but it needs to be rewritten.  Its so bad, very few GM's I know use it.  Even I have only used it a few times, and never the potential lowering part.

[Marc R]

Most instances of people revived after a long gap involve cold. . .like people sucked under the ice of a frozen lake, recovered and revived . . ..some as long dead as over an hour. . .children seem to often come out of lengthy cold-death fine, but the older you are the more likely it appears that you'll come out brain damaged.

As to the Ghost question, the spell restoration was once described to me by a GM as "Using the soul as a tape backup for your brain computer".

[markc]

As to the Ghost question, the spell restoration was once described to me by a GM as "Using the soul as a tape backup for your brain computer".

MDC

[arakish]

The difference between stat drain and stat deterioration eludes me. IMHO they are both using the same cumbersome and bad rule mechanics.

I may be wrong, but the way I handle stat drain and stat deterioration is that stat drain can be recovered by normal means such as leveling up, spending DP for stat gain rolls, or a process similar to healing.  Stat deterioration due to death cannot be recovered except through magical/deitic intervention.

rmfr

[MariusH]

I, too, see Stat Drain (usually by undead) as different from stat deterioration. It is also noted that stat drain should be recorded separately, and it is at least EASIER to fix than stat deterioration (both actually heal after time, but stat drain heal MUCH faster. The problem is that POTENTIAL stat loss don't heal at all! And at 1 point pr. month, even lost temp stats can take forever to regain). But back to Lifegiving: Does anyone at ALL see the point in a spell that can revive a person after as long as a year after his death, when all stats will be at zero after a day or two?

So far, from what I can see, one or two here use the rules for stat deterioration, but their players always stock up on Lifekeeping and Preservation, so Lifegiving is never necessary (and it would probably be useless if they tried). The rest seem to not use these rules at all, and either ignore them completely, or make their own rules...

[arakish]

But back to Lifegiving: Does anyone at ALL see the point in a spell that can revive a person after as long as a year after his death, when all stats will be at zero after a day or two?

As you mentioned, ONLY if Preservation spells were used during the ENTIRE time the body was dead.  I would consider the person's mental facilties to be completely destroyed (reduced to 0), and you would only have a "vegetable."

Otherwise, as far as I am concerned, nothing short of deitic intervention could help.

rmfr