Topic: Misfeel Kind question?

[markc]

Mrac R;
 I think (and hope) we can agree to disagree about the Un-Presence working on the spell.


 Besides that I still have a big problem with the spell detecting movement. Does it just say ok there is movement here and movement over there. Or does it just say there is movement within the 100' sphere? How small of movement does it detect? Does it detect movement in the air or below the ground with in the radius? Does it provide you with an air movement map of the area so you can essentially map the area by looking at the wind patters? Does it detect change in movement or delta movement? To me delta movement is much more valuable than just saying there is movement over here.
 Also in a forest there is a good chance there will be movement everywhere in the radius. How much will depend on how people (or you) rule the spell works. IMHO it will detect worms in the ground, wind moving leaves, birds in the air, spiders moving, bugs , etc. That is a lot of movement and the spell lacks just what or how you deal with said information.
 IMHO people would get a RR vs the spell since as soon as you move it detects you. Yes you are doing the moving so you get a RR.


 On a more important note I do not like to nerf any of the Ranger spells as I think they are sort of weak to begin with and swap quite a few out in my game to provide the Ranger with more balance vs. the other professions (in the combat area and in general).


MDC   

[Marc R]

Presence would not detect a mindless automaton like a golem, it simply fails to meet the criteria of detection that presence keys on, which is "Sentient/Intelligent".

On the other hand "Natures Awareness" would indeed detect a mindless, but animate golem walking across it's radius? The criteria that Nature's awareness keys on is animate activity, even subtle animate activity. A mindless but moving golem is indeed animate activity.

"Unpresence" would make a human target appear as mindless as a golem, and immune to presence, but just as detectable as animate as before you cast the spell.

I'm not seeing the cross connection relating "Unpresence" to "Nature's Awareness", to my reading they operate on totally different vectors.

[markc]

Marc R
BTW, arguing in good natured way.

 IMHO you are using the "letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law" in that the term "movement" is different than other "term" modifiers used in other spell descriptions. Or flavor text vs. flavor text of various spells.
 If it would help I think the text should be changed to "... detect any moving presence." This IMHO is the spirit of the spell and should have been the word of the spell.
 To me the above change would solve a big problem. The Ranger could id the movement based on intelligence so worm movement would be different from human movement ... if the worm did not have the same intelligence as a human.   


 But I am not the official rules guy either and I can understand the difficulty in providing official answers and all that goes with it.   


 Also when I try and look at spell I try and see the meta frame work in which the work across the realms. With some realms maybe getting an exception here or there but in general all spells fitting the framework. If you chose to think in terms of ream to realm abilities and how far they are away from other reams I would say that Mentalism abilities are closest to Essence then Channeling. So a 1st rank spell in Mentalsim might be a 7th rank spell for a Pure Channeler and a 10th rank spell for a semi Channeler. In the same theme in the 1st rank Mentalsim spell might also be a 4-5th rank semi Essence user spell or a 3rd rank pure essence user spell.
  **Note: IMHO the Channeling Companion can blur the lines of the above realm theory quite a bit as a cleric of the "god of the mind" might have the same rank mental spells as a mentalism user.


MDC   

[Marc R]

I dunno that it's a letter of the law thing, it's more that I think you're saying an anti-apple spell will protect you from oranges.

Invisibility makes you non visible, impossible to see. . .this will work vs normal vision, nightvision, long eye, any of the various "see through material" x-ray vision spells, etc. This doesn't make you silent, or odorless, or in any other way affect anything other than sight.

Unpresence makes your mind undetectable to mental perception. This doesn't make you invisible or silent, or odorless, or in any other way affect anything other than mental perception.

I concur with your thesis that every I spell should have a counterbalancing method to defeat it, I merely don't see the connection between "Natures Awareness" which operates off of motion/feel and unpresence and it's effect on mental perception.

Any of the various feel effecting spells, or an anti-channeling spell would seem to be the contrary effect needed to block Nature's Awareness.

[providence13]

The spell detects animate activity. Sounds like movement. Subtle movements = breathing is open to interpretation, but I could see it. IMHO, stopping all animate activity is the way to avoid it.

[markc]

 Marc R;
 What I am trying to say is that IMHO in case of brevity I think the spells description has been chopped to save space and the original meaning of the spell has been changed in the process. IMHO there are very few spells at low rank that deviate from other standard RM "effects" and RM "game mechanics" across the 3 realms. IMHO when looking at Arcane lists it is more likely to deviate from the standard RM "effects" and RM "game mechanics" than the 3 realms but in a small way. Maybe by 1% to 5% of low rank spells being different.
 Having said that IMHO Natures Awareness is providing an "effect" that is vastly different from any other in the game. I do not think that was the authors idea when writing the flavor text of the spell. IMHO the author was going for more of a detect moving "presence" feel, which has some precedence in other spell lists.


 Just my 2 cents, and I humbly thank all for reading in good spirit with smiles on your face.


MDC

[Marc R]

The problem with that is intellect, or lack thereof.

I don't think a nature's awareness spell would fail on mindless undead say. . .but a presence spell would.

The undead are animate, and moving, and thus would show up to the NA spell. They are mindless, so wouldn't appear to the presence spell.

Unpresence gives the "illusion" of mindlessness, making the target as invisible to presence spells as a mindless undead. . .but even mindless undead would be perceived by a NA spell, so the unpresence would have no effect on NA.

Not disputing the logic that NA should have an anti-effect, just think that unpresence fits that bill as little as misfeel kind does. The protection offered doesn't match the mode of the I spell in question.

If Unpresence was an effective counter to NA, then mindless creatures would be immune to it's effect, which isn't indicated anywhere.

[markc]

Marc R;
 On the undead note I would make a comment that states they would be detected with the spell but could be hidden by UnPresence.
MDC

[Ynglaur]

If we interpret Nature Awareness to detect "animate movement", then I think the counter would actually be the various Awareness skills, and possibly an Orientation roll.  Want to "listen" (focus) on worm movements?  Go ahead...but roll to pick it out amongst all the noise.  Think of it like looking at the motion tracker on Aliens.  If lots of big things are stomping all around you, it's hard to pick out the small stuff.  Don't count on hearing worms in the middle of a stampede.  That said, NA would allow you to stretch your senses far beyond normal mortal means...so if things were quiet, you could hear the worms.

Likewise, you'd have an almost guaranteed chance to detect someone sneaking up on you in the middle of the desert: just not a lot moving out there.  However, NA wouldn't help with this on a bustling city street.

I think my interpretation follows the theme of the Spell List well enough, and is workable.

How, then, to sneak up on the Ranger in the desert?  Admittedly, it would be tricky.  Anything to break Concentration helps, of course: a distracting illusion, a flock of summoned birds, tripping over an imaginary tortoise...Then again, Long Bows have great range.

[providence13]

On a related note...

The Ranger used this skill while our Mage cast a Presence x2 radius.
Very tough to surprise the group if they know what's around the corner. Just a brief round of (c) both give a glimpse of the enemy. The two can then tell the party what they detected to at least get an idea of the immediate #'s they face.

Question: Are these spells a flat radius or do they act in a sphere? Getting all presence/animate activity above ground, ground level and below is pretty powerful.

[markc]

Providence13;
 IMHO it is a sphere and it is a powerful spell, again IMHO.
MDC

[Marc R]

Sphere, or else if you were on any signifigant slope the spells would be lame. . .and they are also handy for detecting foes burrowing at you, or in the ceiling. . .what you do with that info may not be 100% handy.

Hudson "3 meters, they're in the room." "Are you sure you're reading that right?"

Most of the lines after that are profanity filled, but I guess you get the gist.