Topic: Race bonuses to Hybrid RRs

[Erik Sharma]

This came up when creating characters for a new campaign we are running over the summer.

The question was if the racial innate bonuses helps against Hybrid Base spell RRs. For example a Dwarf has Ess: +40, Chan: +0, Ment: +40. Does this apply to to Hybrid RRs?

If it does apply against Hybrid spells I assume you would average the bonuses.

[Kristen Mork]

Using the RMSS character sheets as the basis, the modifiers are cumulative.

[markc]

 As a house rule I have done it both ways and I forget the rule as written but I take Peter Mork at his fine word about it.


 If you add the save factors then Hybrid and Arcane RR bonuses can get quite big and make the Arcane and Hybrid casters harder to plat (ie cast spells on people). But this can also be a great balancing factor as well to off set their power gained by increased access to spell lists. If you also need a reason to have the 3 realms this can also be a great reason why the 3 realms are studied by themselves or a reason why the Arcane realm split into 3.


 As per gaming advice I prefer to keep the Hybrid and Arcane realms a little more powerful so I averaged them myself. I also used this method for the Arcane real with the racial mod for the race as a modifier.  This would be a House Rule as is not the RAW.
 
I hope that helps some.


MDC

[Erik Sharma]

Hmm! Gives me a lot to think about. I have up until now not used the RR bonuses for Hybrids at all. With the motivation thinking that the combination of schools makes their spells unique. Was hoping for a more official ruling though.

Using the RMSS character sheets as the basis, the modifiers are cumulative.

I do use the RMSS character sheet and I can't understand where you get that the modifiers are cumulative. But I'll take your word for it and considering that only get two of their Stat bonus against hybrid spells (not counting Arcane) you could say the additional Racial RR bonus would account for the missing stat bonus. But I do feel that in this case the bonuses would get a bit to high if combined.

Another way to handle this is to consider it similar to how the Hybrids handle their PP progression. That is using the lesser of the bonuses that applies. Or you can go the other way and use the better of the bonuses that applies.

I guess it comes down to what I prefer.

But the options so far is:

• They don't get any Racial RRs at all against the Hybrid spells. The Hybrid combination is considered a new realm of magic.
• Use the lesser of the Racial bonus that applies. Similar to how Hybrids handle their PP progression.
• Use the higher of the Racial bonus that applies.
• Use the average of the Racial bonuses that applies. Makes most sense for me and similar to how Hybrids calculate their Stat bonus.
• Add the Racial bonuses that applies together. As Peter Mork suggested.

Gah! Hate to take these decisions when all the pros and cons cancel each other out! 

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Average or add. I'd need to do a serious rummage in the books and elsewhere to get the official ruling by the Old ICE editors, which I think was "add", but that can get seriously big for Dwarves and Halflings.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Kristen Mork]

I do use the RMSS character sheet and I can't understand where you get that the modifiers are cumulative. But I'll take your word for it and considering that only get two of their Stat bonus against hybrid spells (not counting Arcane) you could say the additional Racial RR bonus would account for the missing stat bonus. But I do feel that in this case the bonuses would get a bit to high if combined.

I'm looking at Character Record Sheet T-6.1 (Elf, High) from the 1996 Rolemaster Annual (TM).  In the Resistance Rolls box, they include Chan/Ess (In + Em) with a racial modifier of -10.  Arcane has a racial modifier of -15.  A similar pattern holds for Dwarves (Character Record Sheet T-6.1), which have Ess/Ment and Arcane racial modifiers of +80.

[Ecthelion]

If it does apply against Hybrid spells I assume you would average the bonuses.

That's what we do, simply because it seems reasonable.

[yammahoper]

Hobbits and dwarves  have one real nice advantage, and that is their innate resistance to magic.  Now, I'm all for removing them from the game forever, right now, but if they are gonna stay, I would hope their high resistance is maintained.

[jaranka]

I always thought you just took the better of the 2 resistances.

[rdanhenry]

Every official example has had them added, but I'm not sure there is a clear rule statement.

I did find a specific statement by John Curtis on the RM mailing list. This was 2000 when he was ICE's "Rolemaster guru":

"And yes... btw, the racial mods are added together
(just like they are for Arcane RRs)... so if you race
has a -5 to Essence and a -5 to Channeling, you have a
-10 to resist a Sorcerer's base spell (plus your stat
bonuses of course)."

[pastaav]

They should be added. If nothing else it helps to balance the elves against other races. 

[Erik Sharma]

I'm looking at Character Record Sheet T-6.1 (Elf, High) from the 1996 Rolemaster Annual (TM).  In the Resistance Rolls box, they include Chan/Ess (In + Em) with a racial modifier of -10.  Arcane has a racial modifier of -15.  A similar pattern holds for Dwarves (Character Record Sheet T-6.1), which have Ess/Ment and Arcane racial modifiers of +80.

Ahh! No wonder I couldn't find it. I don't have the 1996 Rolemaster Annual but I do have Rolemaster Character Records and I took a look at those pre-filled record sheets and it seems like you are correct. They have added the racial modifiers.

They should be added. If nothing else it helps to balance the elves against other races. 

I didn't think about that. But yes I agree it does gives a small edge towards the elves so I will probably go with this from now on.

Thanks for the help everyone! 

[Ynglaur]

Does that mean Hybrid and Arcane casters get more PPs, too?  I also assume that hybrid/Arcane RRs only apply against Hybrid/Arcane Lists and not Casters per se.  Is this correct?

[markc]

 Hybrid and Arcane professions use the standard PP progression skill and average their stat bonuses. As a house rule I give casters 2x their bonuses or in the case of hybrids 3/2 of their combined bonus and for Arcane they just add all of their 3 stat bonuses. Yes this house rule does give casters more PP but it works very well in my game. And everyone has at least 1 rank of Power Point Development in my game as a adolescence skill and if Psionics are used then they also have a free rank of Mind Point Development as well. I believe everyone has some innate "power" to them.


 As per the lists question, IMHO it is the casters realm the the spell uses not the list it self. I do not know if this is the official ruling but it makes the most sense in my game world.


MDC 

[yammahoper]

Hybrid and Arcane professions use the standard PP progression skill and average their stat bonuses. As a house rule I give casters 2x their bonuses or in the case of hybrids 3/2 of their combined bonus and for Arcane they just add all of their 3 stat bonuses. Yes this house rule does give casters more PP but it works very well in my game. And everyone has at least 1 rank of Power Point Development in my game as a adolescence skill and if Psionics are used then they also have a free rank of Mind Point Development as well. I believe everyone has some innate "power" to them.


 As per the lists question, IMHO it is the casters realm the the spell uses not the list it self. I do not know if this is the official ruling but it makes the most sense in my game world.


MDC

Innate power is equal to your stat mod in the appropriate realm stat.

Arcane casters have advantages and disadds.  That they have a few extra pp compared to other casters is the least of their advantages.

[markc]

Hybrid and Arcane professions use the standard PP progression skill and average their stat bonuses. As a house rule I give casters 2x their bonuses or in the case of hybrids 3/2 of their combined bonus and for Arcane they just add all of their 3 stat bonuses. Yes this house rule does give casters more PP but it works very well in my game. And everyone has at least 1 rank of Power Point Development in my game as a adolescence skill and if Psionics are used then they also have a free rank of Mind Point Development as well. I believe everyone has some innate "power" to them.


 As per the lists question, IMHO it is the casters realm the the spell uses not the list it self. I do not know if this is the official ruling but it makes the most sense in my game world.


MDC

 I agree but in general it is not enough to over come the -30 for not having a rank in the skill. Of course I could always change rank progression also to something like racial bonus-5-4-3-1-.5 or what ever I have it at now.
MDC

Innate power is equal to your stat mod in the appropriate realm stat.

Arcane casters have advantages and disadds.  That they have a few extra pp compared to other casters is the least of their advantages.

[yammahoper]

Now I am curious...PP Dev has a special progression based on race.  However, I do not believe the -30 is suffered for no rank.  At least, there is no penalty for not having a rank in the skill and the catagory is not trained.

Need to pull out an old character sheet and have a look.

[rdanhenry]

(a) The bonus for no ranks in PP development skill is zero(0).

(b) Hybrids are considered to cast single-realm lists as that realm alone, only the base lists are hybrids. That means if a Mystic casts a spell from an Essence list, it is treated as Essence magic for RRs, as well as all other purposes. I'm not sure off-hand if this is in the rules or is out of the official rulings only.

[markc]

  My mistake I always gave a -30 for no ranks in PPD and MPD. Also with 1 rank people with no stat bonuses have some PP, IE the average people.
MDC

[Ynglaur]

There are 4 kinds of progression in RMSS: Standard, Combined (which is like RM2), Limited, and Special.  PP Development and Body Development are the only "Special" progressions, iirc.  Limited included all Spell Lists and the Awareness: Perceptions category of skills.  One interesting effect of the Limited progression is that stat bonuses make up a potentially huge differentiator in ability.