Topic: Summoner and creature types

[Brakiri]

Hi,

i've a question regading the summoner and one of his base lists "Planar Summoning".
In this list there is a reference to creature "types". Namely type I to VI.

Problem is, i can't find any reference to this types. There is no explaination or table in this book (Channeling companion) connecting types with actual creatures.
There is a note at the end of this list, converting the creature types into levels. But there is another problem.
All of the creatures which could be summoned with this list don't start with less than 10 levels. So the conversion from Type I to levels 1-2 can't be right.

If someone could point me in the right direction?
Thanks.

[yammahoper]

You wamt Creatures and Monsters.  I believe Spell law might also provide the information (Essence for demons and Channeling for undead).

Basically, a demon, elemental or undeads type determines its level/innate power.  Here is a brief listing from "of Mentalism":

Type     Level
 I           1-2                   Elemental Servants
 II          3-5                   Weak elementals
 III         6-10                 Guardian Elementals
 IV         11-15                Strong Elementals
 V          16-20
 VI         21-40
 Beyond Pale 41-100+

Hope that helps.

[providence13]

This is just an example:
Some elementals are lower than 10th lvl; Elemental Servants.
Servants are 5H (H can be anywhere from -3 to +4 lvls; 2nd to 9th lvl max).
Elemental Companion redefines Types as an average of  I (5th lvl) II (10th lv), III (15th lvl), etc. This works out pretty good for me, your game may vary.

IMHO, The Summoner Profession picks a creature of their religion to influence/summon. The GM will have to do some home work to best fit this Profession into their game world.

Check out the Summoning Skill in Essence Companion.

This isn't an exact answer to your question, but I do hope it helps.

[Cory Magel]

We didn't give specific creatures because much of the point of the Channeling Companions Priest concept was that they would be customizable.  So we didn't tell you what creatures you were to be summoning.  We also made the assumption that there would be a Creatures and Monsters book in the gaming group, especially since we didn't want to fill up a book about Channeling magic with a bunch of variations on what could be summoned.

There's nothing to say you are summoning creatures from somewhere other than an elemental plane.  It could be the Spirit Plane, or any variation that makes sense to your 'world', or even something that is not technically extra planar (such as the woodland creatures I mention below).

providence13 is right on the money in his comment.  Essentially the intent was for either the GM or the player to simply find an appropriate critter or rough creature type (either chosen or random - GM's choice) for the various levels of the spell.  If you were using this along with a Druid type profession for example you would create a list of woodland creatures that might potentially be summoned.

If you were using Elementals (probably the most common really) there is a range of 2nd all the way up in levels using all the various creatures found in the Constructs and Elemental section (pages 115-130 roughly?) of Creatures and Monsters.  The lower end level stuff is more hard to come by, but you can simply convert something like the "Eye" construct over to an 'elemental' type creature if you need to.  If you are using Elementals specifically you might take a look at the Elemental Companion as it has lots of relevant critters in it broken down by type.  Yammahoper also points out more options in "of Mentalism" (I never bothered picking up any of the "...of" books).

[Brakiri]

Thank you all for your insights.

I will see what i can put together, without going on my DMs nerves

@Cory Magel

The problem is: The Summoner does not seem to be a priest in the sense of the companion.
So i don't now if your argument really hits the target.
A little help from the creators regarding the summoner wouldn't have hurt the priest construction freedoms established in the companion.
It would not have been neccessary to actually fix the creatures for every spell, but some kind of conversion rules to adapt creatures to the powerlevel of the summon spells would have been nice.

[Cory Magel]

The problem is: The Summoner does not seem to be a priest in the sense of the companion.

That's probably simply dependent on how the GM looks at Channeling casters in his/her world.  I know GM's that consider any Channeling profession a "Priest", but others that reserve the title for characters (PC or NPC) that are more directly involved with the religions hierarchy.

A little help from the creators regarding the summoner wouldn't have hurt the priest construction freedoms established in the companion.
It would not have been neccessary to actually fix the creatures for every spell, but some kind of conversion rules to adapt creatures to the powerlevel of the summon spells would have been nice.

The biggest concept in the Channeling Companion is customization of Channeling profession characters.  The table in the special notes that shows what "Type" corresponds to what "Level" is as specific as I would want to get in telling users of the book what they should or shouldn't be using in conjunction with the spell list - basically we didn't want to 'tell' a GM what is or isn't appropriate, it's supposed to be customized to each character.  Monster levels correspond more closely to certain power levels than player character levels, so giving that as the guideline allows the GM/Player to determine what is an appropriate summoned creature(s) for the actual character.  An example list of critters couldn't have hurt, but I still would have had to send you to the Creatures and Monsters book to get their stats.  And do we chose Demons as the example list, or Angels, or Elementals, etc?

Basically, my perspective was why bother with a generic list that won't have complete info on the creatures anyhow, when the point was for the GM and player to come up with something focused on the individual character rather than the profession generically.

[Brakiri]

As i said, it would have been useful to include some optional rules for the summoned creatures.
Nothing TO specific, but some general abilities, level dependant attacks, DB and OB modifiers for every planar summoning spell etc.
That would have helped to get things started and to get some guidelines how not to break the balance completely.
Type I equals Level 1 and 2 isn't very helpful, beause there aren't any summonable creatures besides animals of this level.

To tell you the truth, one thing i don't really like about rolemaster is how often the players and the GM are left in the rain.
Take combat from the second frontline with a spear for example.
There is one paragraph about this in the character law, but nothing that is even remotely helpful.

I can appreciate the desire not to restrict freedom of choice, but at least give some optional rulings, one can use but don't have to.

By including nothing helpful, in essence you tell the buyers of the product :"Make someting up!".
That's just lazy, and to be honest, thats not the reason i buy "rulebooks"

But thats just me.
Anyways, thanks for your insights.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

This is how I define the creature types in my world:

• Type I: very diminutive creature, inoffensive to a normal, unarmed, human being, such as a cat, a mouse, a crow, etc.
• Type II: a creature dangerous enough to face equally a normal, untrained but armed human being such as a dog,
• Type III: a creature dangerous enough to defeat with ease a normal, untrained but armed human being such as a tiger or a grizzli,
• Type IV: a creature dangerous enough to defeat with ease a trained, elite, and armed human being, such as a giant scorpion, a minotaur or an hippogriff,
• Type V: a creature so dangerous no normal human being can defeat it but a Hero would be able to, though with difficulty, and a Legendary Hero with ease, such as a wyvern or a young lesser drake,
• Type VI: a creature so dangerous even a Legendary Hero would find challenging to defeat it such as a mature dragon,
• Beyond: a creature that constitutes a challenge even to a god, such as Typhon, the Midgard Serpent, etc.

[providence13]

Brakiri,
There are no level dependent abilities/attacks in RM, that I'm aware.
In fact, the "Type" designation varies greatly from creature to creature.
I don't use Type much at all. For instance, with Repulsions, I use total Levels as a guide and not Type.

Olf has a good system and it works in their game. Your group will find a system that works in your game.

Let your GM know that you'd like to summon a creature; it may not fit nicely into the classification and that's ok.
Let's look at summoning an elemental servant that's only 2nd level.
C&M pg 85.
Servant 5H lvl  100BR D/+30 VF/BF S/LA#  50F Hits 1(60) +30 Ball

Again, 5H means that this creature is normally 5th lvl. But H means that it can be -3 to +4; 2nd to 9th lvl. So you could summon an elemental servant that is only 2nd lvl.

Elemental Servants have 50F for hits. The F designates that for each difference in lvl higher or lower, modify Hits by 10. So a 2nd lvl Elemental Servant will have 20 Hits. Now, there is also a Stamina bonus (-8 to +15). Your GM may decide that the creature is of greater or lower stamina and therefore Hits, because of it's difference in level. My point is that if you want to summon a creature that is lower level that the average stats in the book, then there are rules in the book for helping you out.

Your GM may decide that the +30 Ball is also reduced. That's up to them. I wouldn't change it more than +/- 5/lvl, myself, if I changed it at all.

Hopefully, your GM is willing to work with you on this character.