Topic: Swashbuckling - a terrible skill for both player and GM?

[DangerMan]

We are currenty running a Shadow world campaign, and one of the players are playing a swashbucker. We started at level 5, and his swashbuckling skill is very high (> 110 IIRC). This has proved troublesome for me as a GM.

First, the player wanted to use the skill for attacks, e.g. cutting the troath of a foe. I ruled the skill could not be used for attacks. Player was dissapointed.

IMO the skill should primarily be for show, however in SOHK "pinning an opponent to the wall" is proposed as an absurd maneuver. Now, we're approaching an attack. Also, limiting the skill for zorro-like showing of runs counter to logic; if one could rip a persons shirt or carv initials in his chest, one could use the same skill to slit his troath..

Say one wanted to cut of the release mechanism of an opponents crossbow. Even with a modifier of -70 this wold be doable, with such a high skill. Would you allow for this? (just an example)

Where should one draw the line? What practical uses - othen than just for show - would you allow as a GM?

Any thoughts on - or experiences with - this skill is most welcome!

Magnus

[MariusH]

I have no experiences with this skill whatsoever, I just have one general remark:

Having a skill that can be directly used to kill an opponent is in my opinion a very bad idea. Use attacks (OB) for this. The foe should have some means to defend himself (DB, parry, something), and even then, with a high roll, chances are the resulting critical will not yield a direct kill. Skills can get quite high very fast, so with a "direct kill" skill, you'll soon have reduced combat between two opponents to a test of who gets initiative, instantly killing the other one.

Note that even with the "Ambush" skill, you'd need 60 ranks to get a GUARANTEED instant kill (and that's if you don't fumble your maneouver or the stalking maneouver). And Ambush is only allowed in very special circumstances.

[Kristen Mork]

I agree that swashbuckling should not be usable as an attack that harms the opponent.  Most of the combat-useful instances of swashbuckling will be Absurd.  For example, pinning an opponent to the wall (via his clothing); the opponent can always drop his cloak.  So, it's basically a crazy difficult way to delay your opponent for a bit.  Cutting an opponent's bowstring would probably be Sheer Folly (and I really like that idea!).  Cutting a crossbow string would be Absurd, but sticking your sword through the trigger mechanism might only be Ext. Hard (of course you can't use your sword while it's trapping the trigger).

Another creative use I've seen was when three Level 10 swashbucklers with 1 magic sword were fighting a werewolf.  If the werewolf knew who had the magic sword, he could defend himself against that opponent.  So, they used swashbuckling to toss their swords from person to person, preventing the werewolf from knowing who was able to make a successful attack.

I agree that it's a problematic skill.  I interpret it almost like an artistic thing.  It's good for convincing people that you're really good with your weapon, without needing to be really good with the weapon.  The other combat use is to recover from fumbles.

In terms of slashing the opponent's throat: no way!  That requires an attack roll.  On the other hand, placing matching scratches on your opponent's cheeks (while he's stunned), totally acceptable.  Swashbuckling is a skill that defies realism.  It's intended to replicate movie action.  If your players are looking for gritty, realistic combat, I'd recommend renaming the skill "fumble recovery" and restricting it to just that.

In short, if the maneuver sounds like it would be part of a movie-promo montage, it's a good fit for swashbuckling.  Otherwise, you should devote your DP to sword skill.

[yammahoper]

There are times when successful use of a skill may require a resistance roll.  The attack level will be the number of ranks in the skill used.  Resistance level may be a counter skill or level of npc or simular GM fiat.

[DangerMan]

There are times when successful use of a skill may require a resistance roll.  The attack level will be the number of ranks in the skill used.  Resistance level may be a counter skill or level of npc or simular GM fiat.

Hmm.. Interesting idea. I was thinking that maybe targets relevant DB could modify the swash-maneuver.

E.g. If our player wants to cut the shoe lases of a target, the targets QU-mod (QU stat X3) would be subtracted from the swash static man.

[Kristen Mork]

There are times when successful use of a skill may require a resistance roll.  The attack level will be the number of ranks in the skill used.  Resistance level may be a counter skill or level of npc or simular GM fiat.

Note that the Swashbuckler is likely to benefit greatly from this approach.  Isn't Swashbuckling Everyman?  So, he'll generally have twice as many ranks as his opponent has levels.  On second thought, due to diminishing returns on the RR table, once you factor in Qu, it's probably a 50/50 proposition to gain a small future advantage in lieu of an attack.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I allow use of the swashbuckling skill to offset penalties to the outrageous manuevers/stunts that one might attempt.

Basically use it as a Static manauever which provides a bonus, that bonus is added to whatever penalty is being applied to a moving manuever.

If that stupid stunt happens to be a non-lethal attack (i.e. cutting a belt) then I would allow that to be used INSTEAD of a normal attack, the skill replacing the normal OB of the character for that round..

[yammahoper]

I allow use of the swashbuckling skill to offset penalties to the outrageous manuevers/stunts that one might attempt.

Basically use it as a Static manauever which provides a bonus, that bonus is added to whatever penalty is being applied to a moving manuever.

If that stupid stunt happens to be a non-lethal attack (i.e. cutting a belt) then I would allow that to be used INSTEAD of a normal attack, the skill replacing the normal OB of the character for that round..

Quite right.  And the OB should be used to perform the mnv with, so it becomes more difficult the more defensive the Swashbuckler fights.  All out bravado is their style after all.

[Kristen Mork]

I allow use of the swashbuckling skill to offset penalties to the outrageous manuevers/stunts that one might attempt.

Basically use it as a Static manauever which provides a bonus, that bonus is added to whatever penalty is being applied to a moving manuever.

If that stupid stunt happens to be a non-lethal attack (i.e. cutting a belt) then I would allow that to be used INSTEAD of a normal attack, the skill replacing the normal OB of the character for that round..

Quite right.  And the OB should be used to perform the mnv with, so it becomes more difficult the more defensive the Swashbuckler fights.  All out bravado is their style after all.

That final comment reflects a very different conceptualization of the swashbuckler.  I'm happy to see a swashbuckler parry like mad, while setting up the perfect maneuver that will let him turn the tables on the vile sheriff.  So, I'm comfortable with parrying while using swashbuckling, provided the swashbuckling involves slashing curtains, cutting down chandeliers and the like.  (The more Rube Goldberg the better!)

[Marc R]

I tend to use it more against/with the environment than the foe directly also.

[Temujin]

Outside of SoHK maneuvers, we house ruled one specific application of Swashbuckling: Applying some of your OB to help a nearby ally's DB, limited by the Swashbuckling skill.  This is great for heroic rescue attempts and bodyguarding situations.

[Kristen Mork]

Temujin: Great idea!  Consider that idea stolen!

[pastaav]

I really like the idea of swashbuckling used to parry for an ally.