Topic: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook

[Zhaleskra]

I got some suggestions from one of my players at my U-Con gaming convention game:

Minor Healing needs to belong to the Cleric sphere in addition to Universal.
Stun removal for the healing spells.

That's all I remember right now, I'll e-mail him later for the rest.

[Ecthelion]

Minor Healing needs to belong to the Cleric sphere in addition to Universal.

But why should this be necessary? Clerics may also learn spells from the Universal Sphere. And additionally they may always learn Major Healing instead, which, for only one more PP in the base version, is more powerful than Minor Healing.

Stun removal for the healing spells.

Yes, this would be nice. Personally I'd place this in the Universal Sphere, so that fighters may also learn this, even if it costs them a lot.

[Zhaleskra]

I think the first was missing noticing the spell by not looking at the Universal sphere. Nice to have a rules guru sometimes, but he missed finding that spell in my game yesterday.

Thankfully, the same guru looked up the actual rules for Stun Removal rolls when I had just pulled something out of the air because the index entries that start with the word "Stun" did not lead me to the right location.

Maybe put a little bit of Stun removal in Minor Healing, then a higher amount into Major healing?

This probably won't be a popular idea, but to me it would make sense to need to know Minor Healing before you can learn Major Healing.

[uberyoung]

Fractional stat bonuses?
     i.e. instead of:
          71-75 = 5, 76-80 = 6, etc.
     you have
          71 = 5, 72 = 5.2, 73 = 5.4, 74 = 5.6, 75 = 5.8, 76 = 6, etc.
     For skill bonuses, add together appropriate stats and round down.  For everything else, just round down.
     This helps stop the 'cookie cutter' characters with #1 & #6 in every stat...

I think being able to spend 20 dp on stats each level is too much.  Would prefer it lowered to 10.
     Decoupling stats from DP may make this less relevant, though...

Stat only based skill rolls.
     Instead of just doing 2xbonus +1d100, convert the bonus to rank bonus then add to a d100 roll.
     i.e. stat bonus = +7, 7 ranks = +35, so roll 1d100 +35.
     Only a 'basic' level of success should be allowed on a stat only roll.
     I think this gives numeric results that 'fit better' with the standard difficulty numbers / categories...

I agree with the 'skill shuffling' discussed earlier.
     Move Armor to Combat, Endurance to General, and Jumping & Swimming to Athletic.
     Divide the category points up appropriately / sensibly for each class.
     More influence skills would be good...

[Ecthelion]

I agree with the 'skill shuffling' discussed earlier.
     Move Armor to Combat, Endurance to General, and Jumping & Swimming to Athletic.
     Divide the category points up appropriately / sensibly for each class.
     More influence skills would be good...

These changes have their merits. OTOH it means that e.g. mages or rangers will typically be bad swimmers. Is that better than before? In general moving skills that were favored for all professions into categories that are not favored for all does affect the game balance. It might be acceptable in this case, because e.g. swimming is not that an important skill, at least in our games, but there is always a risk to break things that work with such changes. And what's the problem with the current Physical category? I mean if it works don't fix it...

[Thom @ ICE]

True to an extent - but keep in mind that the reason why it was originally proposed was because Armor was in Physical and that in itself was causing issues for some people.

An alternative that has less negative impact on certain professions would be:
Armor to Combat, the rest of Physical to General. 
* Split Ranger's 2 Physical to Combat and General. 
* Mage's 2 Physical move them to General

This way your concerns are addressed, and the number of ranks in General are increased for most, allowing for greater freedom in character development.

Another alternative would be to really look at where those skills fit logically, and in that case one could make an argument for:
Armor - Combat
Endurance - General
Jumping - Athletic
Swimming - Outdoors
Climbing (from Athletic) - Outdoors

There are lots of changes that could be made and justified with different approaches, but as you indicated they could all have other effects that are not immediately apparent.  We can assure you that no changes will be implemented in official rules without playtesting and confirmation that it not only works but addresses an identified issue without creating more issues.

[uberyoung]

I agree - If you wanted to maintain favoured 'access to all', it could be argued that Jumping & Swimming could go into General instead.
     It feels (at least to me) that both should be in Athletic - a matter of personal taste I suppose...
     Swimming in Outdoor is also not unreasonable...

Jumping could also be amalgamated into Acrobatics (at no great loss, in my opinion) rather than kept as a seperate skill.

Jumping & Swimming don't get used a lot in our game either, so might be why I'm slightly biased...

Rangers currently start with 2 ranks in Physical.
     If the Physical category went, I wouldn't argue against Rangers having Athletic as a favoured category and getting their 2 ranks in this...

My image of mages is they study a lot and don't do enough / as much physical stuff as many other professions.
They can still buy these skills, it just might cost a bit more...

Then there's always the Multiple Professions talent, or picking a different class at the start to more closely match your concept?
It's nice that HARP's that flexible...

[Ecthelion]

True to an extent - but keep in mind that the reason why it was originally proposed was because Armor was in Physical and that in itself was causing issues for some people.

Hm, I think it was one person who had issues. And the issue was not even a problem that affected the game but the feeling that Mages should not be able to learn armor as good as Fighters. IMO it has no negative effect in the game that a Mage can learn armor easily. Most Mages still won't develop many ranks because armor penalizes spell casting. And even should they develop the skill to high ranks, what's the problem? If a Mage wants to run around in heavy armor, let him do so. He seems to be willing to pay the price in terms of PP penalty and now has a better DB in exchange for lower spell casting ability. Therefore I still think it's not a good idea to waste resources (in terms of game design and play-testing) on changing these skills.

An alternative that has less negative impact on certain professions would be:
Armor to Combat, the rest of Physical to General. 
* Split Ranger's 2 Physical to Combat and General. 
* Mage's 2 Physical move them to General

This way your concerns are addressed, and the number of ranks in General are increased for most, allowing for greater freedom in character development.

Also a good idea.

Another alternative would be to really look at where those skills fit logically, and in that case one could make an argument for:
Armor - Combat
Endurance - General
Jumping - Athletic
Swimming - Outdoors
Climbing (from Athletic) - Outdoors

Personally I prefer the previous variant with Jumping and Swimming moving to Athletic, but that's perhaps more a matter of taste. Or it's because I was used to Rolemaster for many years where, in the RMSS/RMFRP rules, these skills are in the Athletic category.

There are lots of changes that could be made and justified with different approaches, but as you indicated they could all have other effects that are not immediately apparent.  We can assure you that no changes will be implemented in official rules without playtesting and confirmation that it not only works but addresses an identified issue without creating more issues.

Thanks

[GMLovlie]

I would prefer no change to the physical category, the changes won't ruin the game, but I don't see that they are needed. I for one would continue to use it.

[Maelstrom]

In the whole debate about moving physical skills around; why not make Athletic a favored category for all professions and move flying/gliding to Outdoor?  Contortion and climbing are used or available to most cultures/settings.  How many times have you had to twist your body to retrieve or fix something in a difficult to get to place?  Outdoor isn't a favored category for most professions but most everyone would likely have a small amount of ability in all the remaining athletic/physical skills.

[calmacil]

I would prefer no change to the physical category, the changes won't ruin the game, but I don't see that they are needed. I for one would continue to use it.

Yeah i agree with you. It was a nice idea by Thom  One i'd never thought of, but i like the physical category.

I've kept the exisiting physical skills and added climbing. Then changed acrobatics to tumbling, also balance and sprinting added to athletics. So there's at least five skills in each category.

[Ecthelion]

One thing I'd like to see is a better Damage Cap for the Handaxe. With all Rolemaster versions as well as MERP this weapon was rougly comparable to e.g. the broadsword or mace in terms of damage and criticals. Only with HARP this changed and the weapon now has, as the only of the three, a Small Damage Cap, whereas for the others it is Medium. I think this should be fixed.