Topic: React and Melee RMSS vs Canceling action in MA companion

[Dreven1]

Heya all!
I have a question about "React and Melee" and "Press and Melee"
in the RMSS rules it stats that a "React and Melee" is only a -10 and basically a "Press and Melee" the "Presser" just takes half of their normal movement penalty.

Now, in the MA Companion it states that "Canceling action" there is a -60 to Melee...but nothing about CHANGING action...

Now, here is an example...
Brok init is 16
Dresto init is 13
Skele #1 is 9
Skele #2 is 7
Brok attacks Skeletion #1
Skeletion #1 attack Brok
Dresto attacks skelly #1
Skelly #2 attacks Brok
Brok has init over Dresto and kills Skelly #1…
Since Dresto was attacking Skelly #1 and no longer has a target (or for that matter just wanted to switch targets) WHAT are Dresto’s options??
 
1.   Change action and attack skelly #2 with -60? OR
2.   Is this considered React and Melee and Dresto only takes -10 to his attack to skelly #2?

HELP!?? This came up last session…

[Ecthelion]

What all combatants have to each round is to declare what they do and, in case of an attack, whom to attack and which type of attack (full, press, react) to use. And on this declaration of Dresto's it depends whether he needs to cancel or not:
If his declaration was to do a Full Melee or Press & Melee attack, then he has to Cancel his action in order to choose another target and do something useful. If his declaration was to do a React & Melee attack, then he has to suffer the -10 this type of attack includes, but in such cases where his original target is no longer available (or he simply wants to attack another target once his initiative is due) he does not have to cancel but can attack another target without penalty.

[rdanhenry]

Heya all!
I have a question about "React and Melee" and "Press and Melee"
in the RMSS rules it stats that a "React and Melee" is only a -10 and basically a "Press and Melee" the "Presser" just takes half of their normal movement penalty.

Now, in the MA Companion it states that "Canceling action" there is a -60 to Melee...but nothing about CHANGING action...

Canceling action is in the RMSR as well. React & Melee is a declaration during the Action Declaration Phase allowing selection of a target after getting a better idea of what is going on during the round (possibly expecting that new opponents will be appearing during the round). Changing an action is done after the Action Declaration Phase to do something other than one's declared action.

See section 18.2.3 "Canceling Actions" for the rules for changing activity. It allows for the possibility of making an undeclared melee attack, which has a -40 OB penalty and must be done as a deliberate action (you're not going to do a quick strike). Note that if the character has acted before canceling remaining action, there's going to be a penalty for less than 100% Activity for the attack as well.

[Dreven1]

ok good info...

I still dont understand what Destro can do during his attack when his target is dead?  He declairs a full attack on Skelly #1 but Brok already killed it...

What can he do then? and what are his negatives? Can he do a react and Melee on Skelly #2 with a -10 for react and Melee and also get a -40 for changing action?

This is where I am confused...

[Dreven1]

oh and on an "Undeclaired" attack does this also apply to parry? if you are now getting attacked and declair that you want to parry instead of attack? do you get a -40 to your parry also?

[Kristen Mork]

ok good info...

I still dont understand what Destro can do during his attack when his target is dead?  He declairs a full attack on Skelly #1 but Brok already killed it...

What can he do then? and what are his negatives? Can he do a react and Melee on Skelly #2 with a -10 for react and Melee and also get a -40 for changing action?

This is where I am confused...

I agree that the rules are a little vague in this regard.  Personally, I would allow Destro to change his target with a penalty of just -40.  If Destro had declared a full attack, his OB would be Base + 10 - 40 against Skeleton #2.  However, if Skeleton #2 is not in melee range, Destro cannot make an attack.  If Destro had declared a pressing attack, his OB would be Base - 40 (possibly minus something for movement).  In this case, Destro can attack Skeleton #2 regardless of its location, provided he can get there with 40% movement.

I've never moved the attack to the deliberate phase.  If you do that, then the character should probably also get the +10 bonus for acting in the Deliberate phase.

Converting an attack to parry has come up before.  I think the simple answer is that if you want to change your OB/DB split (e.g., from no parry to full parry), then you take the -40 penalty before choosing the new split (making most changes except for none to full moot).

[Dreven1]

I see...

but where does the -10 come in from a "React and Melee" - it seems to me that Destro is reacting to a changed melee... if he had declaired a full melee then I can see your point.  I am just confused about react and melee.

[Ecthelion]

There are three types of attacks a combatant can choose from when declaring actions at the beginning of the round:
1. Full attack: Adds +10 to OB, but cannot change target or follow opponent if moving.
2. Press & attack: +0 to OB, still cannot change target, but can follow opponent to some extent.
3. React & melee: -10 to OB, can change target (does not even have to declare one) and can follow the opponent to some extent.

Therefore the -10 for React & Melee comes from the type of attack. See RMSS pg. 97 or RMFRP pg. 217 for more information on these attack types.

Whether it is necessary to cancel and suffer a -40 penalty to the attack depends on the type of attack that the character declared at the start of the round. It looks like Destro has chosen to Press & Attack, since a target was selected but no bonus given. Therefore once his original target has died he has to cancel his original action and suffer the -40 for canceling an action. Had he selected React & Melee he would have a guaranteed -10 to his attack but it would not have been necessary to cancel.

[pastaav]

The reason he must cancel his action is because he can not know if the Skeleton will die or not until much part of the round has passed. Suppose Brok is the one of the two that got a flank bonus. It would be very weird if Brok manage to kill the Skeleton because Drestos involvement allowed him a flank bonus, but that Dresto then can decide that he did not in fact help with killing the Skeleton.

[Dreven1]

Thanks for the comments
In the MA Companion Page #78 Section 14.1.4 it states that if someone cancels action with more than 60% left they can:
1. Move 50% of normal move
2. Engage in melee as deliberate at -60 mod to DB.
3. Make a maneuver at -60

Does this override the older rules in RMSS? 

[rdanhenry]

Ouch. I wouldn't increase increase the penalty to -60, -40 is harsh enough. I guess the real question is what do the RMFRP rules say? Unless I misremember, MAC was RMSS, so RMFRP would be the most recent.

[Dreven1]

RMFRP states on page 54
18.8
CANCELING ACTIONS
During a round a character may cancel all of his remaining
actions before they would otherwise be resolved. If the
canceled actions total less than 60% activity, the character
may move 10% of his normal movement as a deliberate action.
If the canceled actions total more than 60% activity,
the character may perform one of the following alternative
actions:
• Move 50% of his normal movement as a deliberate action.
• Melee as a deliberate action with an additional -40 OB
modification.
• Make a maneuver as a deliberate action modified by an
additional -40. This maneuver may be a spell casting static
maneuver.

Thanks All!!! this answers my questions!!!       
Dreven

[pastaav]

Ouch. I wouldn't increase increase the penalty to -60, -40 is harsh enough. I guess the real question is what do the RMFRP rules say? Unless I misremember, MAC was RMSS, so RMFRP would be the most recent.

I really doubt that ICE spent any energy to make sure RMFRP did align with optional material from RMSS.

[rdanhenry]

If the MAC was meant to make a change to a core rule, one would expect the change to carry over into the RMFRP. Since it was not changed in RMFRP, it is likely that the -60 in MAC is simply an error.

[MariusH]

Let's say I have moved 20% in snap phase to get adjecent to two orcs. I declared a full melee attack at orc 1 in normal phase. However, my archer friend stuns orc 1 before either I or the orcs have attacked (stupid archer - why couldn't he just fire at orc 2 like he was told!). I now cancel action and declare a full melee attack at orc 2. Now this is how I see it:

1) Since I haven't parried and the cancelled action is more than 60%, I am allowed to do this.
2) My attack first comes at deliberate phase, but I am still allowed to parry orc 2 in normal phase.
3) I get a -40 to my attack after having cancelled an action (+10 for deliberate phase +10 for full melee). However, do I ALSO get a -20 for having moved 20% in snap phase? As far as I see it, the rules say no. The NEW ACTION gets a -40 as long as the cancelled action(s) was more than 60%. I can now either move 50%, make a MM with -40 or a melee attack with -40. If I were to get the additional -20 for moving in snap, then what if my "new" action were movement? Would I only be allowed 30% movement? If I were to make a MM, would I also get an additional -20?

[Kristen Mork]

1) Yes.
2) Yes, although I would consider subtracting 60 from your OB (40 for canceling the original attack and 20 for movement) before allocating any parry.  Thus, it's possible you won't be able to parry because you have no OB left.
3) Assuming no parry, I think you're at -40: -40 for canceling, -20 for movement, +10 for deliberate and +10 for a full attack.

FWIW, whereas the rules don't indicate a penalty to the new attack for using less than 100% activity, neither do they allow you to declare a full attack.

[rdanhenry]

The penalty to melee is described as "an additional -40 OB modification", so that is tacked onto the -20 for not having full % activity to devote to your melee attack.

Nor can you make a full melee attack for the +10 bonus. "the target of the attack must be declared during the Action Declaration Phase". (RMSR, p. 97)

Next time react and melee. That way you can nail that uncooperative archer instead, without all those penalties. 

[MariusH]

Thanks for your replies.

The penalty to melee is described as "an additional -40 OB modification", so that is tacked onto the -20 for not having full % activity to devote to your melee attack.

The question is: How many percent CAN you devote to your melee attack? The rules simply say that if the cancelled action is at least 60%, you can make a melee attack. It does not say that you can "make a melee attack with the percentage of the cancelled action(s)". I DO agree that this makes sense somehow, though.

Nor can you make a full melee attack for the +10 bonus. "the target of the attack must be declared during the Action Declaration Phase". (RMSR, p. 97)

Since there are only three types of melee attacks (there is no "normal melee" - just full elee, press and melee and react and melee), you MUST chose one of those. And I'd NEVER allow a "react and melee" after a cancel action. Also, press and melee calls for at least 60% activity, whereas you can cancel a 60% activity and melee, so that one's out, too. I see it as you get a new declaration phase immediately when you cancel action, where you have to declere movement, maneouver or melee - and if you choose melee, you HAVE to choose full melee, and state your target then and there.

As for the question: What if I have used 20%, cancel action and choose movement - then what? The rules say I get 50% movement, it does NOT say that this is reduced based on the previous activity. Thoughts? I think this should be seen together with the melee option.

And what if I were hasted, had to cancel 120% activity and attack in deliberate? I say I STILL get the -40 penalty. And still only one action.

[pastaav]

Let's say I have moved 20% in snap phase to get adjecent to two orcs. I declared a full melee attack at orc 1 in normal phase. However, my archer friend stuns orc 1 before either I or the orcs have attacked (stupid archer - why couldn't he just fire at orc 2 like he was told!). I now cancel action and declare a full melee attack at orc 2. Now this is how I see it:

1) Since I haven't parried and the cancelled action is more than 60%, I am allowed to do this.

I would say it depend on the archer. Missile fire is 30-60% action meaning that even if the archer went as fast possible you must at least devote 10% of the round to parry. Remember that the orc are not standing around waiting to be hit but making attacks (even through we know none of the attacks really connected...but that is only true if you do parry).

If you don't parry or dodge then the orc should be able to hit you with his first strike. This means you would have between 70% and 40% activity left of the round. If you can do melee or not depend on the activity left.

2) My attack first comes at deliberate phase, but I am still allowed to parry orc 2 in normal phase.

Yes

3) I get a -40 to my attack after having cancelled an action (+10 for deliberate phase +10 for full melee). However, do I ALSO get a -20 for having moved 20% in snap phase? As far as I see it, the rules say no. The NEW ACTION gets a -40 as long as the cancelled action(s) was more than 60%. I can now either move 50%, make a MM with -40 or a melee attack with -40. If I were to get the additional -20 for moving in snap, then what if my "new" action were movement? Would I only be allowed 30% movement? If I were to make a MM, would I also get an additional -20?

You would be at -40 since you have -40 (cancel) +10 (deliberate) +10 (full melee) -20 (movement). Speaking about the movement case there is no real contradiction from my point of view. When you cancel an melee attack you recover a certain percentage of action. Point is that how much that is recovered depends on what the new action is. It makes sense that cancel an attack to select a new target is a different thing compared to end melee and do something completely different.

An attack require 100% action to be without penalties and will thus be affected by the movement while moving 50% is just a 50% action and will not cause any penalties. 

[rdanhenry]

Thanks for your replies.

The penalty to melee is described as "an additional -40 OB modification", so that is tacked onto the -20 for not having full % activity to devote to your melee attack.

The question is: How many percent CAN you devote to your melee attack? The rules simply say that if the cancelled action is at least 60%, you can make a melee attack. It does not say that you can "make a melee attack with the percentage of the cancelled action(s)". I DO agree that this makes sense somehow, though.

Since there are no rules to the contrary, same as you always can: 60-100%.

Nor can you make a full melee attack for the +10 bonus. "the target of the attack must be declared during the Action Declaration Phase". (RMSR, p. 97)

Since there are only three types of melee attacks (there is no "normal melee" - just full elee, press and melee and react and melee), you MUST chose one of those. And I'd NEVER allow a "react and melee" after a cancel action. Also, press and melee calls for at least 60% activity, whereas you can cancel a 60% activity and melee, so that one's out, too. I see it as you get a new declaration phase immediately when you cancel action, where you have to declere movement, maneouver or melee - and if you choose melee, you HAVE to choose full melee, and state your target then and there.

There are only three choices for melee declaration in the Action Declaration Phase. There is a fourth type, however: attacking as a alternative to a canceled action. For that, the modifier is -40. There is no new Action Declaration Phase, just as there is none when selecting the target of react & melee. It also fails to pass the common sense test to provide the bonus given for committing fully to an attack for the full round to someone who switches his action to an attack in the middle of the round.

As for the question: What if I have used 20%, cancel action and choose movement - then what? The rules say I get 50% movement, it does NOT say that this is reduced based on the previous activity. Thoughts? I think this should be seen together with the melee option.

No reduction. It caps your possible % movement. If you have 80% activity left, you've still got all the activity you can put into a Deliberate Action Phase move anyway. The difference between movement and combat is that there is always a penalty for using less than 100% activity for melee. % activity for movement only limits how far you travel. You normally only need 50% activity to do a 50% move. This is confirmed by the example on p.75 of the Rolemaster Standard Rules, where Dral makes half his normal movement after canceling his declared action AND having earlier used 20% activity for movement in the Snap Action Phase.