Topic: Damage to Armour. Is it worth doing?

[calmacil]

I'm considering using some house rules for armour getting damaged. With the individual areas that can be attacked (using the Martial Law rules) it could work with this system.

Is it worth doing? or will it be a pain, and just something else that the PC's have to keep track of?
Does anybody already do damage to armour?



If i use the idea i'll be making it as easy as to track as i can. I'll make a character sheet with a diagram of a human figure with boxes alongside each piece of armour.
For damage i was thinking of something easy such as "the piece of armour takes half the concussion damage of the crit" or write in an extra code on the crit (you already have 3B 2S for 3 bleed, 2 stun... armour is simply 5A for 5 points of damage to armour)

[jasonbrisbane]

Our group doesnt but I think it would be good to do..

[Widukind]

there are rule for destroying armor. May be in ICE´s Arms Law

[GMLovlie]

I like the idea, and about half hits is good I think.

Then you need to make up hits for the different types of armour, both for location and material...

Another idea, perhaps simpler and not so realistic would be just to note down numbers of hits (to appropriate location). Then using the armour or craft (appropriate armour type [leather/metal or light, medium & heavy – whatever your poison]) skill as a maintenance skill and/or skill for repairs.

Number of hits are then divided into categories which gives your cost and/or difficulty.
Here too one must have a certain number of "hits" that a type of armour can take, before being useless and/or completely destroyed.

[calmacil]

I like the idea, and about half hits is good I think.

Then you need to make up hits for the different types of armour, both for location and material...

Another idea, perhaps simpler and not so realistic would be just to note down numbers of hits (to appropriate location). Then using the armour or craft (appropriate armour type [leather/metal or light, medium & heavy – whatever your poison]) skill as a maintenance skill and/or skill for repairs.

Number of hits are then divided into categories which gives your cost and/or difficulty.
Here too one must have a certain number of "hits" that a type of armour can take, before being useless and/or completely destroyed.

Yes that's the sort of thing I'm thinking of doing. An example of hit points for individual pieces of armour would be for a shirt(this will be the highest number of hit points for a piece of armour) ...... soft leather=10, RL=15, Ch=25, Ch/Pl= 35. Pl=45 .......  these total hits will be based on some of the crits giving either 1,2,3 or 4 at the most. Not worked out a system for half hits yet. I want the armour to last for quite a few combats.

I was also thinking of adding in a modifier. Slashing weapons do 1 less armour damage against Pl and Pl/Ch, 1 more against no armour and SL........ then bludgeoning weapons the opposite.

To make it fair i'd also have Non-player characters sometimes wearing battered armour.


Related topic........ i'd say you use a repair hammer for metal armours to bash out the dints.
What do you use for leather armour?
Is it a needle and thread?

[Cory Magel]

Just not worth the hassle in my book.

[uberyoung]

Mmmm... I agree, too much book keeping!

I tend to use the opponent rolling a 66 and hitting you to downgrade/damage armor.
Simulates hitting a strap / making a hole in it / etc.
Downgrade by 20% (or something) until it's fixed (by the character or by paying for it)...

[calmacil]

Yes you can potentially have all sorts to keep track of.... exhaustion points are another one.


Reason i asked is there's a crit in Martial Law that says ..."bad cut across chest destroys any organic armour."
This made me think ........"that seems harsh if you had a magical rigid leather breastplate. Maybe there's a better way to handle damage to armour, and if it works."

[Mitchiban]

Having weapons, armor, and other gear take wear and tear is great for gritty campaigns.   But keep in mind that the frontliners have it a bit rough already compared to the casters.   If you dont mind the extra bookkeeping and it doesnt slow down your game to much why not.   But you will have to do something to make the magical versions feel the bite too.

Some general ideas for magical armor bonus degrades until it regens some mana, falls off needs repair just like the normal stuff,  gets a RR versus crit.  Perhaps build a cascading table for how this is handled for color.  Not every armor crit will be the same.

Magical Spells-  A crit could use a similar table as above to determine the effect.  Spell could be turned off, require additional power points, even a stun for feedback. 

As long as its balanced and doesnt take away from the experience for the players and gm why not. 
=============================================================================
Example of a on the fly Cascading RR for Magical Armor and Spells.  Please adjust as needed as I was just going off the cuff to provide this example.
Base for Items:  Each bonus X 4 is the base magical resistance so a +10 magical chainmail would have a 40 (10x4) base and then add your RR roll.  Bonuses return at total bonus +5 every hour.
Base for Spell:  4 x PP of the spell.  So a basic Mage Shield provides 16 base (4x4) while scaled to plate would provide an 80 (4x20)
CRR (120)                             Crit is absorbed no additional effect
CRR (100)                             Armor / Spell reduction of -5 bonus or 2 pp worth such as duration halved.  Caster may suffer the feedback and lose the pp but any current concentration is lost including current spell casting.  Take 1 hit as magical energy surges around target.
CRR (90)                               Armor / Spell reduction of -10 bonus or 4 pp worth such as duration quartered or downgrade the protection by 4pp.  Caster may suffer the feedback and lose the pp but any current concentration is lost including current spell casting. Take 1-10 hits as magical energy surges around target
CRR (80)                               The Armor/Spell holds but take 1-10 hits and stunned for 1 round as magical feedback energy surges around the target. Spell may be released to avoid the stun but the hits still apply plus any current spell casting is disrupted.
CRR (70)                               Armor piece breaks as per critical will need to be repaired / spell is shattered and will have to be recast to receive the benefits. -5 on next casting maneuver
CRR (50)                               Piece breaks but treat original critical as if it was never armored to begin with.  You and your Artificer need to have a heart to heart.  Sloppy Spell provides and opening blow that cleaves your spell in twain. -10 on next casting maneuver.
 

[Zut]

These are interesting ideas, but as others said, it may need a lot of calculation. Have you thought about using a system similar to weapon breakage (in RMSS)? Depending on the type and quality of the armour, when the attacker makes his roll, if it is a double (11, 22, 33, etc.), you re-roll to see if the armour is damaged.

[Cory Magel]

Yes you can potentially have all sorts to keep track of.... exhaustion points are another one.

Exhaustion points? What are those?
(First thing we disregarded playing RM).

[providence13]

These are interesting ideas, but as others said, it may need a lot of calculation. Have you thought about using a system similar to weapon breakage (in RMSS)? Depending on the type and quality of the armour, when the attacker makes his roll, if it is a double (11, 22, 33, etc.), you re-roll to see if the armour is damaged.

This could work for me, but I don't want the added complexity. As the Breakage rules, you're trying to bust 100 to save. Adding magical/quality bonus and maybe the bonus from low Difficulty (Leather breast plate vs crush could be Routine +30) or high Difficulty (Longbow arrows vs chain?).
The number of Breakages that armor can withstand could be the AT....

However you run it, if you determine the armor has been damaged, now what?
Do you modify DB, AT, Maneuvering Penalty(( )...
Changing AT might be a first reaction, but would it be accurate? Of course we'd skip AT 12, 11, 4, 3. But damaging AT9 Leather breastplate shouldn't drop you down to a AT8 Hide Coat. Damaging a AT17 Metal Breastplate couldn't drop the AT15 to Full Chain. Should it go from AT17 to AT13 to AT9?

Or could you give a penalty to DB?
Armor that's been banged up may not fit the same. There's a rivet sticking in my side or the gauntlet is sliding off a bit. Changing Maneuver Penalties or Exhaustion rules (whatever those are  ) could help.
For me, the question is,
Should damaging armor represent that you're easier to hit or that you're easier to damage? 

We also don't use Exhaustion or PP Exhaustion for that matter. Why penalize twice for (effectively) the same thing? Semi-caster's have it bad enough as it is.

[Thom @ ICE]

My own preference would be to deal with this more in terms of a straight simple calculation
* First I assume you are using a hit location method - like the one in Martial Law
* Then, any time a strike exceeds 100 the armor would be damaged.
* Damage to armor = 10% of the amount the result exceeded 100 (round down)
* Each point of damage reduces the armor's DB by that amount.
* When DB reaches 0 for that area of armor - it is useless.  You can still wear it and it impacts encumbrance, but it provides no DB.
* For magic armor, the calculation is done, but it doesn't actually reduce the DB until the enhancement is entirely exceeded - then it loses the enchantment.
ex: Bracers +5....
Someone rolls 132 result = 3 points of damage, Bracers continue as Bracers+5 but have -3 damage
Next Attack someone rolls 134 = 3 points of damage, Bracers now are damaged to a total of -6, this ecceeds  the +5 enchantment.  They are no longer enchanted, but still have a DB of 4 (Bracers std DB is 5, but the extra -1 after the enchantment was eliminated goes against the bracers)

That is at least how I would do it - but I don't bother with that much "realistic" detail.  I see it as High Adventure - for more gritty, realism I would probably use Rolemaster

[Ecthelion]

Is it worth doing? or will it be a pain, and just something else that the PC's have to keep track of?
Does anybody already do damage to armour?

We never did and probably will never do so. This is one of the areas where IMHO we might improve realism but will not get more fun.

Just my 2 cents