Topic: Can i move and fire a bow?

[calmacil]

As the title says. I was reading one of the Combat actions called "Move & Attack"
I noticed that there are some combat actions that are for missile attacks (eg. ranged disarm) So wondered if this combat action could apply to ranged attacks.


It says the character suffers -10 to OB for every 5ft moved. It seems to imply that it's only for melee attacks, but it doesn't say. I remember M.E.R.P had a similar game mechanic, but it only worked with melee attacks.

[Erik Sharma]

Well the same question came up our last session. Together with the additional question if it is possible to make a Power Attack with a missile weapon to bypass the damage cap.

I don't know the official answer but I couldn't come up with any reason why not to allow neither Move & Attack and Power Attack with a missile weapon.

[calmacil]

Well, in my Harp book it says Power Strike may only be used with melee weapons. But i may have an older book, or a new reprint.

[calmacil]

Ah sorry, i misread your post Chorpa. You said Power Attack, I replied with Power Strike. I'm new to Harp, not had a game yet. But i have played M.e.r.p for ages and RM since the 80's. So many things are familiar to me.

I agree with you, i don't think there is an answer.  For my group i'm going to rule that "Move & Attack" can't be used for ranged attacks. I'm unsure about thrown weapons. I guess if ranged are out, then they are too.

If i started to allow anything with an OB using the "Move & Attack" rules, wouldn't it also apply to a mage casting a bolt spell? Again, this doesn't feel right to me.

[GMLovlie]

I would allow move & attack with a crossbow.

Speaking of normal bows on the other hand I might allow it, if the pace is no greater than walking, and perhaps increase the penalty to -15.

These are untested house-rules though.

[Erik Sharma]

Ah sorry, i misread your post Chorpa. You said Power Attack, I replied with Power Strike. I'm new to Harp, not had a game yet. But i have played M.e.r.p for ages and RM since the 80's. So many things are familiar to me.

I agree with you, i don't think there is an answer.  For my group i'm going to rule that "Move & Attack" can't be used for ranged attacks. I'm unsure about thrown weapons. I guess if ranged are out, then they are too.

If i started to allow anything with an OB using the "Move & Attack" rules, wouldn't it also apply to a mage casting a bolt spell? Again, this doesn't feel right to me.

That's ok! Was my mistake I meant Power Strike actually. For some reason I keep calling it Power Attack. And yes you are right the book clearly states that it only applies to melee weapons. But I do feel it a bit unfair for the melee combatants to be able to bypass the damage cap and not people with ranged attacks.
Maybe I should switch to Hack & Slash to get rid of that pesky Damage Cap?
Hmm now I got a bit divided on this ruling. Might have to go back to the official way to handle it for now. The ruling I made during the last session was just a quick judgement call without looking into the book. It never came into effect anyway.

I'll check the errata if there is something mentioned about Move & Attack! I'll be back when I have read it through.
Edit: Couldn't find anything in the Errata about using Move & Attack with missile weapons!

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Ignoring the rules for a moment (I frequently do..) try applying a little logic to the situation.

It is fairly easy to nock an arrow whilst stationary and then move at a jog (or run) whilst "holding" the arrow on the bow in it's nocked (but not fully drawn position) with one hand with a reasonably firm grip, since the tension will actually make it easier to do so. In fact, it should actually be possible to draw a 1-H weapon and fight with it in the other hand whilst doing so.
Loosing the arrow after stopping would only then require a reduced amount of time to "complete the draw and loose", since the majority of the time taken is actually the preparing the ammo and nocking it, rather than actually drawing the bow.
Moving with a fully drawn bow and in an aiming position (or loading and drawing the bow) OTH is also possible, but requires two hands and would limit the wielder to a walk, taking a little more time.

Loosing an arrow whilst moving (by foot) should therefore should simply incur penalties based upon the pace used.

As for thrown weapons, Javilins are thrown whilst the person is moving in the olympics so why not? (The only proviso I'd have is that the target is in the direction of travel )

[RandalThor]

I would allow movement & attack with a missle weapon - only with double the normal penalties (-20 per 5 ft.), plus whatever modifiers there may be. Think about it, in modern firearms (which are undeniably much easier to use than bows, or even crossbows) the biggest thing that will throw off your aim is your own body movement; a small movement by you can cause a large discrepancy in where the round goes.

As for Power Strike and missile weapons: No. Remember, for missle weapons, the target cannot block or parry*, and you can kill them from 100 feet away. Those more than balance things out, rules wise. Now, speaking "realistically", how on earth do you do it? Thrust the bow or crossbow forward fast and hard just as you fire? Unless there is some special attribute of the bow coming into play, it just doesn'e make sense.


*At least not without any special martial-arts training, and even then not at full capacity (I believe).

[RandalThor]

PS: It is not that easy to keep an arrow notched while moving at even a jog*, much less anthing like a sprint (even a short one). Not impossible, just not all that easy, and the person would/should be subject to a higher critical fumble range to reflect the possiblility of dropping the arrow - and having to start all over once they get to their firing position.


*Hell, I have dropped arrows just pulling the bow up to start aiming for my shot. 

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I've never tried sprinting with a (fully)drawn bow... I'd have gotten in trouble with my mother for running with scissors.

What I meant was that, assuming a reasonble nocksize, the bow could be held with one hand (the one normally used to hold the bow (if right eye dominant the left one) in such a way that the indexfinger retains the shaft of the arrow against the bow and the bow can be partially drawn to a (very minor) extent where the tension of the string prevents the arrow from "un-nocking", the arrow then won't "fall off the bow" because its shaft is secured.

Having the bow held one-handed in such a way allows for a more natural body movement and is no more problematic than running with another type of weapon drawn in the "off-hand".....or something more bulky... like a shield or even a spear in two hands. I've personally leapt ditches, run and even climbed a ladder using the same method without incident.

I've also loosed an arrow accurately when walking, that's not a great problem...I agree that at greater speeds accuracy will suffer radically (especially if you are firing where you are not moving towards)  it's loading at the same time as moving (at any pace) that's the big problem.
 

[Puin]

Yea, it's possible to run and jump with an arrow notched with some tension. U can even run crouched between bushes or behind low walls.

But, at least for my experience, U have to stop dead to fire against a single target. Losing while moving makes extremly hard hitting a single target. U can shoot to an area doing what we call "covering fire" (foc de cobertura).

But with 2 sec rounds I agree with RandalThor and apply a -20/5ft at least.

Oh, and who hasn't drop an arrow while aiming. It makes U look like a fool but it happenzs. 

[calmacil]

I would allow movement & attack with a missile weapon - only with double the normal penalties (-20 per 5 ft.)

Yeah, i totally agree with -20 per 5 ft for missile fire, I'm going to use that as a house rule. I like the idea of an archer behind a wall, notching his arrow, then stepping through a door and firing.


What does everyone think the minus should be for a thrown weapon?
The same as "house rule" missile? (-20 per 5 ft) , or -10 per 5 ft, or no penalty at all?

Personally i'm thinking -10 per 5ft moved

[Puin]

Well, I tend to drift towards reallity wich means I have to restrain myself not to over-rule everything    so, as a GM, will state that:

1) If the throwing player is static or moving towards the target, then no malus added.
2) If the throwing player is moving and not strictly towards the target then add a -10/5ft at least.

All of us has thrown rocks (lots of them  ), and broken branches as spears too, and some have even done some athletics and thrown javelin .... and we usually take 2-3 steps/mini-jumps to gain some momentum while focusing on the target. And all those steps are always towards the target.

So that's my 2 cents

Knowing that HARP is just a (terrific) rule compendium focusing in playability mor than a reality-like game I will use point 1) and 2) as my house rules, as well as 3) -20/5ft for firing while moving.

[DavidKlecker]

I would say yes given that some archers are always moving to a better position to fire. Thus I would allow a player to nock an arrow, move a certain number of ft and then fire the weapon taking away a -10 for every 5 ft moved for that round. If a player wishes to just move for a round, more power to him. If are moving and firing a bow at the same time I would have to give a higher penalty but I would ask why. I would not grant a bonus to any forward motion as the bow's power will always be greater than whatever your power would be. Also when it comes to a sling, I would suspect for longer distances the player is running a bit to get that extra distance.

[Puin]

Hi Monk, on my towards bonus option (in fact it's a "no malus" option) I was talking 'bout throwed weapons, not bows. Meaning javelins, spears, axes, rocs, whatever but not bows. Obviously moving forward will not physically grant bonus to them.   

Just to make sure.