Topic: New house rules, need feedback

[ToM]

executioners used really bug weapons because they were not skilled armsmen, but bloody amatuer hacks.

Agreed.

The cinamatic rules cover helpless foes well with a simple mod: if your OB/DB is double your opponents then one attack will count as THRE against it instead of three foes.  This requires 100% activity.

They're in the MAC, right? I'll take a deeper look at them, even if they didn't seemed me particularly good.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I think that Rolemaster has more opportunities to replicate the opportunity to fail to cause death (but cause an effect that could replicate it) than any other systems. An example is a combat with opponents that use blunt weapons, the majority of these combats ending in unconsiousness and broken bones. As a referee I generally say that the players have achieved a "kill" and that the combatant will recover conciousness at some point in the future when the party have moved on. Whether they then get eaten by scavengers OTOH is another matter..

Only if the players specify that the attempt to ensure a kill is made afterwards would I bother with a coup de grace... and when mundanes are involved this is automatic if the perpetrator has sufficent time and would have NO penalties for doing so. Otherwise there should always be a chance of survival for the victim. To add mystery in such situations during such attempts I always roll for crits!

When characters are involved, the same rules apply. I tend to err on the side of "being left for dead" but stripped of equipment or captured in cases where intelligent opponents are involved. Hostage situations are a different matter, though I tend to give bonuses to hit but not automatic kills. If the character has specific skills to allow it (such as ambush) then they would automatically be allowed as well, but causing death is never a 100% certainity with a single strike.. even with multiple strikes the chance of the blood and gore caused giving the impression that the victim mis actually dead and thus leaves a chance, however small, that the victim could survive.

[ToM]

BTW, please note we're not speaking of finishing a severely wounded foe. We're talking about delivering death with a single swift blow to a prone/downed/harmless foe which COULD actually wake up and react if the swing does not land well.

If I have infinite opportunities to kill a foe who's either hampered or not capable to react, then it's only a matter of time.

[yammahoper]

A question of weapon?  No armor is so well made that it will stop a direct blow delivered full force with no attempt to deflect or dodge it.  Spears will poke big holes, axes cleave, swords stab through and defeat the armor.

Also, how high does your Sd need to be to suffer being stabbed awake, bleeding and not be confused and probably terrified?

[markc]

  If you are talking about natural sleep I do not think you can sleep in armor comfortably. Magical sleep upon an armored person would be IMHO 1 round of magical sleep and then a roll for them to awaken because armor is not good to sleep in.
  For paralysing effects IMHO it again depends on if they are wearing armor and how they fall or are laying.
 
 Also Fate Points are a good mechanism to deal with PC's avoiding these death blows.
 
MDC 

[Grinnen Baeritt]

BTW, please note we're not speaking of finishing a severely wounded foe. We're talking about delivering death with a single swift blow to a prone/downed/harmless foe which COULD actually wake up and react if the swing does not land well.

If I have infinite opportunities to kill a foe who's either hampered or not capable to react, then it's only a matter of time.

The thing is, that the result is the same. The question is whether the assailant would be perceptive enough to know as to whether a blow had actually killed the target. In most cases the target will be incapable of much past surviving even if the blow fails to kill the target outright. The princilpes are the same in that will always be a chance that an "assumed killing blow" could fail to kill the target, however apparently "cut and dried" the result might apparently be. I agree that if you have infinite chances then the result will almost be a certainity. However, in situation where you haven't got them, or that you are tired, hampered in anyway, then there is ALWAYS the chance that a mistake will be made that potentially allows for the survival of the target dispite the odds.. whether that be due to error or luck.

It's one of my pet hates in most Hollywood films that the villian of the piece gets shot in the final scene only for the hero (or heroine) to be distracted by a love interest, loot, or whatever only for the said villian to rise and get another chance... when clearly the hero "should" have logically emptied the clip into the villians brain at point blank range.

[Marc R]

Which is what I meant above. . .if you hack them once with the sword and leave, they are probably dead, but it's not guaranteed. . .if the declaration is "I hack him in the side of the neck with my sword until his head comes off" then that will always be lethal, but may take a few rounds.

Assuming the target is helpless and there's nobody who will intervene, and the attacker is willing to take the time to be certain, it's a gimmie, but if time is short, start with the maneuver rolls, just as the RAW call for, with a difficulty based on how hard the GM thinks a kill would be given the particulars of the situation.

It's like the declaration "I load all of our baggage into the wagon and drive away.". . .if uninterrupted, with plenty of time, it just happens. . .if you have two minutes before the posse shows up to hang you, then it might require some rolls to see how fast you can get it done. . . .or if you're still standing there slinging luggage when they arrive.

Attacking downed foes in combat, where other combat is still ongoing, is definitely not "taking time" to do it, it's trying to get it done in combat time.

[ToM]

Attacking downed foes in combat, where other combat is still ongoing, is definitely not "taking time" to do it, it's trying to get it done in combat time.

Which is, exactly the thing I meant in the first time. 

[Marc R]

In that instance I allow an attack, with all the applicable bonuses for a prone, downed foe (only magical DB), and I allow a defender, if they choose, to stand over and defend a downed person.

If nobody is handy to cover you, it's usually bad. . . .with all those modifiers, even an en pessant attack at -50 will usually max out the chart, and for most decent sized weapons the hits will be bad enough, much less the D or E crit. . . .and if someone stands over you and does a full OB, full attack at no penalty, especially if you play with one of the "Wrap the chart" house rules, which will almost definitely come into play.

Then again, they might trip over an imaginary dead turtle and fumble stab themselves in the femoral artery. . . .gotta love a good fumble at a key moment.

[ToM]

In that instance I allow an attack, with all the applicable bonuses for a prone, downed foe (only magical DB), and I allow a defender, if they choose, to stand over and defend a downed person.

If nobody is handy to cover you, it's usually bad. . . .with all those modifiers, even an en pessant attack at -50 will usually max out the chart, and for most decent sized weapons the hits will be bad enough, much less the D or E crit. . . .and if someone stands over you and does a full OB, full attack at no penalty, especially if you play with one of the "Wrap the chart" house rules, which will almost definitely come into play.

Then again, they might trip over an imaginary dead turtle and fumble stab themselves in the femoral artery. . . .gotta love a good fumble at a key moment.

Yep sure.
The way I ruled it last week's session.
Only I felt some degree of bonus to critical hit was necessary for characters, since "D" or even "E" critical doesn't mean instant death or severe injury most of the times. So a bonus to the critical for those characters who doesn't have an Ambush skill I felt was necessary. This bonus count exactly as an Ambush skill bonus (up to +/- bonus to crit rolls) and is stackable with Ambush bonus itself (so a character with 13 ranks in Ambush skill and 20 ranks in Weapon Skill will have a actual bonus of (up to) 33 to adjust critical strikes against helpless foes.

[Marc R]

Even RAW it could be argued that an unconscious person is "unaware of being attacked" and thus a valid target of the ambush skill. (While a down, but able to flop around person aware of being attacked would not)

The only problem with jacking things up so much as to add Weapon ranks to Ambush Ranks and apply, is that fate can be gentle. . .like I take a crossbow bolt to the helmet, and drop, knocked out for a few moments amid a battle, you were just fighting with me, and take this opportunity to slash me full OB with your broadsword. . .you could, by chance just happen to hit my big metal belt buckle, or my big holy symbol, or the pouch of coins I'm carrying, and even with your tremendous advantage still just leave a bruise, or perhaps break a bone behind the hard object that stops the edge from cutting into me. It's mid battle, you still need to be aware of people fighting and be ready to defend, so you're not devoting 100% of your attention to killing me.

OTOH after the fight ends, if I'm still laying there bleeding, and you're no longer needing to split your attention, you can likely press your sword into my neck then give it some twists.

It's not like RM combat isn't already quite dangerous when you're standing and defending yourself, and once you have taken a hit bad enough for a down result, usually a follow up attack with unmodified crit is going to be bad enough.

[ToM]

once you have taken a hit bad enough for a down result, usually a follow up attack with unmodified crit is going to be bad enough.

Agreed.
But we're not talking here about finishing a downed/wounded (but still able to defend himself to some extent such as rolling, covering vital parts, and the like) foe, but an incapacitated/helpless one. Someone's sleeping, in coma, held paralyzed by magic or by mundane means such as being completely tied up.

Obviously, I will never allow such a crazy bonus to criticals for a "simply" downed/wounded/stunned foe.
It's implied that who attacks will have some amount of time to adjust the strike so to land the deadliest blow he can. Much the like than Ambush skill works against unaware foes.

[Marc R]

There's too many variables in "combat time" for me to feel comfortable allowing that level of bonus, I already consider all the various bonuses stacked against a helpless foe to be good enough when the attacker is still constrained by rounds and needs to devote some of their attention to the general combat (it's not like when doing such a coup de gras you are giving it your undivided attention, dropping your quickness DB, Dropping out of Combat stance, opening yourself up to a surprise or ambush attack.). . .so keeping in mind the fact you are not taking full attention to the matter I'd generally just allow one attack attemp with the RAW bonuses. . .not that you spend 10 seconds hacking on them for 1 result roll, just that in the general abstraction of 10 second rounds, you only make one overall attack attempt, as modified by the situation (which at my table would likely be a pile of hits and multiple crits as a result of "wrapping the chart") Likely, but not absolutely definite death.

OTOH in the situation described in my last post if you and I were fighting 20' off to the side of everyone else, and I went down, and you said "I lay the point of my sword on his throat, bear down with all my weight then jerk and twist it around just to make sure." I'd likely give you a maneuver roll easy enough you'd almost definitely kill me. . . .but if one of my buddies declares "I run over to save him by attacking ToM." you'd likely find yourself attacked flatfooted in the process of a maneuver, much like slashing someone who's trying to pick a lock in combat, since the level of attention needed to "guarantee a kill" would pull you out of combat stance and readiness.

At least, that's how I'd play that out at my table, that make sense?

[markc]

ToM;
  IMHO; the tied up, paralysed and helpless-bound-immoblised would be an instant kill as they cannot defend themselves and the attacker can walk up put a blade to a lethal area and end the persons life.
  Sleeping is a bit different IMHO as I would like to know with what sleeping gear, how they are laying, attackers weapon. But to keep things simple I would try and keep the rule as above.
 
MDC

[rdanhenry]

But we're not talking here about finishing a downed/wounded (but still able to defend himself to some extent such as rolling, covering vital parts, and the like) foe, but an incapacitated/helpless one. Someone's sleeping, in coma, held paralyzed by magic or by mundane means such as being completely tied up.

The problem with coming up with a good rule is largely in your equating someone who is merely sleeping with someone who is truly helpless (comatose, paralyzed, or bound). In the later cases, you can strike at will, inflicting many wounds during the space of a combat round, or simply setting your weapon where you wish to strike and thrusting it home, then twisting at leisure. Devoting ten seconds to this activity, even while keeping an eye and ear out for hazards, should be enough to finish your victim at least 99% of the time (unless some hazard actually does intervene and you spend the round parrying). OTOH, a sleeping victim can be expected to wake at, if not before, the first blow and afterward present an at least partly-mobile target if the initial strike was not fatal. The two cases are not equivalent and should not be lumped together; killing a merely sleeping target should be substantially harder, or anyone would make a good assassin.

[yammahoper]

Don't sweat the small stuff, and an incapacitated orc npc is about as small as it gets,

Roll the attack, if it doesnt fumble the foe is dead, move on.

If there is a melee going on, by all means roll init for the actions.  If my PC were delivering the killing strike, I would voluntary lose init to prevent being defenseless against a counter strike, but I am awfully tactically minded.  If I wanted to see if my PC would do the action, I would roll d10 and add Sd mod.  11+ indicates I he indeed pauses till the "safest" moment.  Realizing that such actions are serious meta gaming, a GM may rather require a Combat Aweness check or something simular for the PC to make the killing blow as safely as possible.

Just keep it simple.

[Ynglaur]

In general, movies do a very bad job of showing the effectiveness of ancient armors.  Modern tests have started to show that, lo and behold, armor actually worked.  Which makes sense if one thinks about it: why would ancient civilizations spend vast fortunes of iron and steel protecting soldiers, if it didn't work?  If armor were worthless, who needs a phalanx when you have peltasts?

Rolemaster does a decent job of this, though I think most attack tables should change critical types on higher armor types.  It should be hard to get a 'C' slash on someone in AT20.  A C Impact, or D Unbalancing is doable, though.