Topic: Shield skill

[VladD]

One quite annoying feature of RM has never been addressed before (as far as I could see): Shields

From modern reenactments and organizations such as SCA we have learned that shields were actually quite effective and did more than simply make it a little bit harder for accomplished swordsmen to hit their opponents.
Well trained shield users got plenty of defense from their shields. Reacting to blows from multiple foes and even using it as a kind of weapon, the shield was more than an extra layer of protection.

In conjunction with the forums I'd like to put together a skill, which is game balanced and historically accurate to improve anyone's game.

The RM FRP rules concerning shields are:
- shields work against one opponent per round, reducing his OB by the DB of the shield.
- target shield, +15 Me, +10 Mi, normal shield, +20 Me & Mi, Full shield: +25 Me & Mi, Wall shield: +30 Me, +40 Mi
- parrying missile attacks with a shield is 50% action, reducing the available OB also AND disallowing any attacks, except one handed missile weapons and thrown weapons.

The shield skill
- is a combat maneuver skill: meaning it is a combined skill.
- learned for every shield type separately; Shield spell, target, normal, full, wall.
- special skill, that has no stat bonus that adds to it.
- Every ATTACK, more than one that the wielder tries to use the shield against, is a 20% action, reducing any and all actions for that round. (sorry but I note this with all my house rules because my players tend to overlook such trivial details)
- the Db provided with the shield vs one attack is Shield skill value + shield melee/ missile value
- the Db provided against multiple attacks is shield skill value+ shield Db value - 20 x ( number of opponents -1 )
- The Shield skill + shield value is added to normal Db sources, such as Qu, armor, talents, spells or effects and parrying (reduce OB by shield skill action %).
- Magical shields would be wielded the same as ordinary shields, same as shield spells.
- The opponents that can be shielded against must be to the front, or shield side of the wielder, usually a 120-180 degree arc to the front and left side.
- Using the shield against missile attacks is treated the same as melee, except using the missile bonus.
- Parrying with the shield vs missile attacks remains a 50% activity, but still the shield skill would be used and any left over DB and the -20 penalties would count towards for trying to shield from multiple attacks.

This looks, so far, to be OK, except I see certain problems:
- too large DB for shield specializing fighters: 5th lvl: with everything thrown in (incl hobby) 54+ 25 (full shield) extra DB.
- Too low DB for untrained persons: -30 for untrained + 30 for wall shield is 0, and NEGATIVE for smaller shields.
- According to the core rules; a shield doesn't interfere with maneuvers, but I would like to incorporate it: something like halve of Melee bonus is a penalty to any moving or static maneuver (if both hands are needed penalty increases to impossible.
- The total DB's of enemies would be higher (a good thing) by not too much, EXCEPT in the lower levels where it would probably be crippling.
- Fights would last longer. Especially against more opponents since the second combatant wouldn't be striking a bare party fighter.
- Parrying missiles is no longer really necessary, as the shield skill can be used more efficiently.
- Increased DP costs for making effective fighters

So I need help to correct some issues with the skill.
Also some advice whether or not a shield skill would be practical in play AND whether or not it should be implemented in any future rules editions.

Game on!

Joeri

[Ecthelion]

You might want to take a look at RMC Companion Companion or RMFRP's Martial Arts Companion (if you can get hold of the book, it's out of print). The Weapon/Combat Styles presented there include some of your suggestions.

[Witchking20k]

I think Ecthelion meant the combat companion for RMC.  It has rules for developing combat styles.  The way you are depicting the shield seemd to fit in

[providence13]

So, your group uses this and it works well?
How does it play?
Would the "2 one-handed weapon" combat rules/shield bash cover this, or is this easier for the group?

Looks good!

[VladD]

@ providence13: I'm hoping to improve it with help of the forums, so I haven't implemented it yet with my group.
You'd better wait until the issues are resolved
but for 2 weapon fighting: I kinda forgot to write it up in the skill description: just use the shield skill + AgStSt + any weapon group prof bonus, -20 for left hand for the weapon skill but also the character needs a 2 weapon fighting skill: Prime hand weapon/ shield. Only allow this for physical shields (not the shield spell)

@ Ethelion: its not really like a combat style, its more like an extra skill, that everyone using a shield should master because that's how shield are supposed to work. I'm not looking for more bonus to add to my OB or DB.

one thing I am realizing here is that it is maybe a good idea to limit the extra DB by more than the number of attacks blocked. Perhaps a maximum tied to the size of the shield:

wall shield: 80 % cover
Full shield: 66% cover
Shield: 50% cover
Target shield: 20% cover

where the cover provided would be the the maximum of shield skill applied to a single attack. Divide the Db amongst the opponents, but never more Db than the maximum cover provided.

Any more suggestions?

[Ecthelion]

@ Ethelion: its not really like a combat style, its more like an extra skill, that everyone using a shield should master because that's how shield are supposed to work. I'm not looking for more bonus to add to my OB or DB.

I am fully aware of that, but I am not a fan of yet another mandatory skill for those PCs that want to enter melee combat. That's why I favor the way Combat Companion and Martial Arts Companion tried to solve the issue that skilled fighters should be able to use their shields more effectively.

Just my 2 cents

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I like some of the ideas, as you, I thought the "humble shield" should be more effective than perhaps it is.

Perhaps it should be a in the 1-H Concussion Weapon Category (if using RMSS), since it has the potential for use as one.

The user would then have the choice either to use it for additional defensive abilities or attack as a weapon.

I'd suggest:

1.Use the Static Manuver table (using the skill bonus) to determine the additional DB that a skilled user might recieve in a round. Poor rolls actually reduce the normal DB of the shield as the attempt puts the shield out of position.

2. Give using the shield skill a activity range of 20-50% for ALL defensive uses of the shield skill. Using only 20% therefore carries a -30 penalty to the skill check.

3. Successful uses of the skill allows the bonuses gained from the SM table to be used in several ways. The player choose which at the time the check is made.

a. Any bonus from the SM table (and only that bonus) affects ALL incoming melee attacks that the wielder is aware of for that round. The "normal" DB bonus from the shield is still also used, but only versus ONE specifed opponent from those that it currently would affect had the skill not been attempted.
b. A successful check allows use of the shield DB outside the normal permitted arc of effectiveness, any bonus from the SM check is added to this DB (for the greater part this only serves to cancel some of the bonus that the oppenent recieves for attacking from that position).

[pastaav]

one thing I am realizing here is that it is maybe a good idea to limit the extra DB by more than the number of attacks blocked. Perhaps a maximum tied to the size of the shield:

wall shield: 80 % cover
Full shield: 66% cover
Shield: 50% cover
Target shield: 20% cover

I think the proposed numbers are a bad idea. There is a problem with that the Target shield is simply a worse choice than a larger shield. If you are to develop special rules for shields I suggest that you make sure the smaller shields that provide less DB gets more flexibility and options as compensation.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

one thing I am realizing here is that it is maybe a good idea to limit the extra DB by more than the number of attacks blocked. Perhaps a maximum tied to the size of the shield:

wall shield: 80 % cover
Full shield: 66% cover
Shield: 50% cover
Target shield: 20% cover

I think the proposed numbers are a bad idea. There is a problem with that the Target shield is simply a worse choice than a larger shield. If you are to develop special rules for shields I suggest that you make sure the smaller shields that provide less DB gets more flexibility and options as compensation.

I agree, the smaller shields allow for a greater degree of responsiveness in melee (rather than just being an obstacle) and perhaps in any potential skill use the normal DB of the shield should be applied as a penalty rather than having to learn each shield type as  seperate skill.

[VladD]

@ grinnen bearrit: Although your idea for making a static maneuver and limit it that way sounds like an idea, but always think of where a shield is facing, meaning that there should be a 180 degree arc (120 for square grid battlemats) where the shield is active. Another problem I have with it is that it is an extra roll, and it is probably important not to confuse reality with playability as the priority.
The suggestion of making it a weapon brings in the OB used as DB rules: parrying. I thought it was best not to go there

@ pastaav: in the current system the target shield IS the worst choice, simply not giving as much Db as the next shield size. Also the "system" isn't there yet, so we can make it anything we want

Considering the last suggestions and the points raised by me, perhaps the following is a good idea:

The shield skill works as above, except where the bonus is applied against all attacks it is raised against, there is like a pool of defensive bonus:

base DB: 3xQu+talent,armor,spells (blur, aura, etc.)
Defensive pool (DPo): shield's bonus (like in the core rules) + shield skill total + parry (OB=DB) bonus - ((number of foes blocked-1) x shield penalty)

Defending vs 1 foe: Base+defensive pool
defending against 2+ foes: per foe: Base + defensive pool allotment - shield's penalty per extra opponent blocked.
The resulting DB against a specific opponent is applied against all attacks from that opponent, until specified differently.

The defensive pool is reduced by a number defined by the size of the shield for every extra foe over 1.
Target: 5%, Normal: 10%, Full: 15%, Wall: 20%, magical 10%. Remember that there normally is some penalty of -20 for doing this using parry. This should even out the shield size vs shield versatility debate.

The beauty is that the CORE system is not affected, IE no loss if someone doesn't develop the shield skill, and it feels RM like, without making any extra rolls.
Another note is in order: I ran several test fights against one or multiple opponents, using low lvls and higher lvls, but using a percentage of activity every round for employing shield defensive tactics and up to a shield skill of 50+ (10 ranks) this was too limiting when compared to using OB for DB (parrying): thus the penalty to activity had to go (sorry Grinnen bearrit it was too math heavy, especially if working from a 50% activity as the standard "use shield defensive tactics". 60% is minimal for an attack, thus leaving a -40 penalty to OB BUT also a -10 on the use of the shield skill( 40% act is 10 less than 50%). Where a normal -40 parry would deliver 40 DB, the Shield skill needs to be 50+ in order to justify the returns. For fighters this would occur at lvl 5, but for most other classes who don't have DP to spare, this is only after lvl 10. Using the pool against multiple opponents would even be more limiting. ) 

Anyway: so how is this sounding?

[Grinnen Baeritt]

My suggestions were based upon the fact that the Shield is, in effect, an item in the other hand, much like a second weapon and that its base DB is added as a "parry" bonus (as applicable to other weapons) when it is used to parry.

Therefore I believe you have two options:

1. Treat the Shield as a weapon in the off-hand and enhance its DB using a shield "OB" to parry in exactly the same manner as the Two-Weapon fighting rules (However you choose to interpret them.)

2. Choose to treat the derived skill result as a simple enhancement to the Shields inherent DB.

The second is what I was suggesting. Personally, I think this is easier to cope with than trying to interpret the TW Combat skill.

The shields use, either as an active offense/defence skill like a parry or a SM skill should be variable and also vary with the size of the shield just like the aiming/loading of a missile weapon. It allows flexability and risk if the player wishes to take it. Simply using the base DB of the shield "passively" doesn't affect the activity of the character.

The smaller shield types having a smaller activity requirement.. and less of a penalty when using the skill than the larger shields.

Also my suggestions were based around the assumption that attackers will still retain any bonuses for attacking outside of the shields normal covered arc regardless of the skills effectiveness.. Using a shield "actively" allows the character the flexability to bring the shield to bear against those attacking from those, normally, vunerable arcs. Because the inherent flank/rear bonuses are unaffected, the shields effectiveness is automatically reduced but not ignored like it would be with "passive" use. If you want an added layer of complication you could restrict its use to the side of the arm that the shield is worn on. 

Note also that I included the restriction that the shields main inherent DB could only be used against ONE opponent when using the skill. I suppose it depends upon how dynamic you want the combat to be.





 

[VladD]

I think my last write up of the shield skill does in fact cover all your concerns AND mine. I do not want to burden anyone's game with extra rolls. The passive use of the shield is covered and there is an active component that works much like adrenal defense; except it is used with a medium to large item in your hand.
Shield were quite versatile and I wanted to reflect this in the shield skill, therefore allowing people to also use it as the OB skill, if developed properly with TWF skill AND to block other people's attacks. Those actions are quite similar with a proper shield.
The fact that smaller shields, in my write up, will diminish the defensive pool less than the bigger shields is more than enough to simulate versatility on the shield. in fact: comparing wall shields and target shields means that with one foe the wall shield has a 100% lead over the targe (+30 vs +15), with 2 foes, the lead has disappeared and evened out already: 30 DB -20 per extra foe = 10 DB, where the target shield gives 15 - 5 = 10 DB with 3 foes the target shield is leading by 200%. (Wall: 30- 2x 20 = -10 DB, Targe: 15- 2x5 = +5 DB)

About the facings and the use of the shield. I'm pretty sure that RM has a facing system, and the whole idea about working together in large military units comes from the use of shields. Surrounding a foe with 2 or 3 fighters will make sure he gets killed, due to the bonus of +35 that is awarded to at least one of the attackers. Better block off a passage, or find another advantageous position to use the shield to your best advantage. I think it is best to leave it at that and not introduce skill rolls that allow an overall defense.

But perhaps I'm being too lenient with allowing the shield skill to come into play without any extra cost. So how about an activity cost, per shield size, say 10% per shield category: targe 10%, Normal, 20%, Full: 30%, wall: 40%, with associate penalties on OB of course.
The main problem I have with this is that, where the wall shield was king in the "olden days" now the Targe is the shield of choice for the proficient swordsman, mainly because it doesn't hamper OB as much.
Are we on the right track?

[Nders]

We did something alot simpler when confronted with the same problem. We introduced a shiels skill with the same cost as tactics, to make it cheap for most classes. What the shield skill did was potentially increase the db you got from shields. We used a system that divided the set bonus for a shield by 5 and set this number (4 for a normal shield, 5 for a full shield and 6 for a wall) to be the bracket by which the value of ranks would decrease. The first four ranks for a normal shield would thus give you a bonus of 5 each for a total of 20 - Which was the set bonus. The next 4 ranks would the give you a bonus of 2 the following 4 a bonus of 1 and finally 1/2 for the last 4 ranks. This woul mean that a fighter with 8 ranks of shield skill would recieve a bonus of 4x5+4x2=28 to his db. This would be 5x5+3x2=31 for a full shield and 6x5+2x2=34 for a wall shield. The maximum number of ranks is decided by the four brackets 5/2/1/o,5. This worked very well for us for a good number of years but we stopped using it when we took up combatcompanion as it has its own take on shields and using both set of rules simultaniously prooved slightly out of control.
Hope I made any sense

[Grinnen Baeritt]

It does, but essentially ignores the fact that currently an untrained person still recieves an inherent bonus to DB due to the cover it provides (much the same as you would for being behind a wall. A skilled user should recieve additional benefit above and beyond that because they are using it in an active fashion.

[providence13]

Looking at the armor tables, better armor means
1) you're easier to hit
2) you take less damage

What if shields didn't help with DB at all? Percentage bonus with shield skill could be a % reduction in hits taken while the type (size) of shield could modify crit reduction.
A character with a low skill might not use all of the protection a large shield provides while a very skilled character might be blindingly fast with a target shield, using far beyond the normal defensive capabilities.
Shields could have a set min/max for hit/crit reduction (like Armor skill chart).
Defending vs more than one target divides the % Skill bonus among them.

I don't use this... but if we're talking alternate, simple and based on skill.. Just an idea.

[Nders]

It does, but essentially ignores the fact that currently an untrained person still recieves an inherent bonus to DB due to the cover it provides (much the same as you would for being behind a wall. A skilled user should recieve additional benefit above and beyond that because they are using it in an active fashion.

You could solve this problem by meerly removing the first bracket and start from the prefixed bonus i.e. 20 for normal 25 for full etc.

[VladD]

Although I'm liking most of the suggestions above, especially the math heavy diminishing returns on the development of the bonus, it means that, even with the first bracket filled in already, that a 5th lvl fighter (10 ranks shield skill) with a normal shield will get: 4x2+4x1+2x0,5= +13 bonus on top of the normal 20 = 33 (full: 25 + 15 = 40, wall: 30 + 16 = 46) for 10 lvls of full development... The returns for full development are +1 per lvl. thus at lvl 25 the shield skill yields 66 DB for a fighter.
I'm liking my write up better, where the shield provides a pool of DB, distributed as the wielder likes. Perhaps the shield skill should, like body development, have a special development returns. in the order of 0*4*2*1*0.5 ?

As for the hit reduction/ crit reduction for shields: it is not how shields work, for the most part. This is how armor works. Look at the attack tables: the same roll on a higher AT yields less hits and less crit.
Shields work to deflect blows and thus should give DB.

As the write up is right now: Defensive pool, diminished returns, activity % to use the shield, using the pool against multiple opponents reduces it, shield skill is used for shield bash (although I do like to apply normal development returns for that and StStAg and weapon group profession bonus AND TWF needs to be developed)
Would GMs use it in their game? Does it make sense? It is not too powerful? Would ICE use it if THEY had came up with it, for a next edition?

Game on!

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Not really wanted to join because it'd feel as if I'm stomping on your ideas but... IMO the idea of a "parrying shield skill" isn't a good one, and not in line with how RM works.
First, because you don't address the point where one uses a weapon as a parrying item, in which case it behaves like a shield.
Second, going further in this line of reasoning, we can make a difference between a "inactive" use ("parrying" use) of an item, may it be a weapon or a shield, and its "active" use ("attacking" use). Then, if we consider it, RM already deals with how to manage the active use of both items in each hand; it's called TWC. While its implementation may not be the best of all (in fact, IMO, it goes against the basic principles of the RM combat system --as an effect, I have my house rules about it), it's the way to go if you want to give an "active" role to shields. In other words, give the shield skill as suggested in AL&CL, therefore allowing one to attack with it, and manage it as a TWC, therefore one can parry by subtracting an equal number from one's shield skill and the other hand's weapon skill.

The only point remaining would be how it's always better to have a bigger shield whereas a smaller shield should restrict moves less but it can easily be solved by giving an Initiative penalty to each shield, the bigger the shield, the bigger the penalty.

[providence13]

Cool, Vlad.
Just an alternate idea trying to factor in shield size and skill.
What if
Game on!

[VladD]

Hey Olf

I'm basically asking to be stomped here but I'm not really sure why everyone is talking about TWF skill. Parrying with a weapon, whether it is prime or off hand, or both, according to CORE rules, is handled by converting a certain amount of OB to DB and then applying it to one or more combatants. The amount is subtracted from BOTH the weapons' OB. Per extra foe over 1 parried, the DB is penalized by -20. Only when 100% of OB is used to parry will off hand weapon be considered a shield for a +5 DB, or in some cases +15.
I'm not looking for a minor bonus to the DB, the thing I'm hoping to address is the small role a shield has in RM combat. This is, historically and in SCA battles, not correct. the Lyst of Combat is dominated by sword/ shield fighters and that has a variety of reasons: Swords are fast, agile and accurate fighting tools and shields are handy and effective defensive tools. While RM captures the killing potential of a long/ broad sword strikingly, the defensive powers of a shield are sorely underrated.

Parrying is also handled beautifully, I really have no objections there, but IMO a trained shield user should benefit from having a movable defensive cover on hand. a shield skill where a fully committed fighter would have (5th lvl 40 more, 10th lvl 60 more, 15th lvl 70 more and 20th lvl 75 more) DB than in the CORE rules.
This ok, since in a face off with a fighter his own lvl he would be facing someone with LOADS of OB. In a disparite face off (fighter vs thief, semi spell user or hybrid or pure spell user) the fighter would have no trouble finishing his opponent, due to the unequal OB/ DB distribution, as would be "historically" accurate.

As for the attack use of a shield (the active use) I merely tried to fix a problem Grinnen had with all the extra skill points being wasted on an expensive skill, so I assumed that someone with plenty of skill in his shield, also had learned how to use it to attack with. You just need to learn TWF (prime weapon/ shield skill) to be able to use the shield skill as a weapon skill., of course using the shield as a weapon disallows its use as a shield, therefore nullifying any shield inherent bonus AND shield skill bonus to be used, as per TWF core rules.

The only thing that I want fixed is that shields are now like a thin wall that you hang on your body, giving you a fixed and one time use bonus on DB, and change it in to the handy and effective defensive tool it actually is.

One of the reasons I am bringing it up is that a typical fighter, using talents, training packages and a few well made rolls for equipment can have 120+ OB at lvl 5, in RMFRP and, if he wears heavy armor like AT15, 16, 18, 19 ,20 he can have no more DB than his friggin wall shield, or 30...which basically means: who wins Initiative (and doesn't fumble) will attain a high crit 60% of the time, killing opponent 56% of the time, amounting to a 1/3 chance the winner of initiative will slay or incapacitate the other guy in one blow: this is pretty harsh IMO. For higher lvls this is even more of a problem when facing off with critical resistant monsters. Fighters will almost ALWAYS get fatally wounded, or stunned and unable to parry for too many rounds (1 or more ) before the critter is pacified.

The shield skill will probably even this out, and provide better ways to spend extra DP, than learning how to use that 5th or 6th weapon type for fighters.

And thank you Providence13

Put your game face on and play!