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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMSS/FRP => Topic started by: thiha on September 25, 2009, 12:07:00 AM

Title: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: thiha on September 25, 2009, 12:07:00 AM
I ordered it in June 2008 as part of a RMSS hardcover 4 books value pack, last year, and I reported the mis-printings I found on my first reading after opening the postal parcel.

Upper half of the headers in lots of pages were not printed correctly in the page frame and all the chapter openers were cut in half horizontally with the numbers in the center unreadable. Some tables in the back were also affected with this at the headers, and at the footers in some pages, and so some of the table names, border lines and page numbers (lots in total) were cut off or cut in half.

Then ICE's customer service kindly offered to send me a replacement as and when made available.

... And I have been waiting for it for a year now, only to be informed recently that this case was actually considered a low end problem and not a crucial issue for most people, as there were only two persons who reported such case and as I was the only one who tried to get a replacement.

So, is this kind of mis-printing considered as OK, and no need of replacement, for most of you??

Maybe I'm an unlucky customer who got a rare misprinted copy and left aside, or I'm just too nitpicky?

(http://C:\Documents and Settings\まさき\デスクトップ\A.jpg)(http://C:\Documents and Settings\まさき\デスクトップ\B.jpg)(http://C:\Documents and Settings\まさき\デスクトップ\C.jpg)(http://C:\Documents and Settings\まさき\デスクトップ\D.jpg)
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: thiha on September 25, 2009, 12:11:10 AM
Oops, sorry, it seems .jpg image files are not uploadable.

(http://C:A.PNG)
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: thiha on September 25, 2009, 12:36:16 AM
(http://sky.geocities.jp/ym_thiha74/p_213.JPG)

Edit
----
Somehow, the image fetching function is disabled for this. I don't know why.
Sigh.... OK, I stop posting hereafter. Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on September 25, 2009, 02:51:09 AM
I would consider such a mis-printing to be unacceptable.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: craggles on September 25, 2009, 03:24:27 AM
I've had a missprinting issue with a SpaceMaster:Privatirs book but no resolution.

The critical tables (starting with the Puncture table) in the back of the book are double printed and offset from each other so I have an unpleasant ghosting effect which is very unreadable.

(http://web.me.com/craig.john/share/Spacemaster-small.jpg)
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: thiha on September 25, 2009, 03:52:57 AM
>Nicholas,
Thanks for posting. I really feel kinda uncomfortable every time I see the pages affected with the half-cut headers.

>craggles
Ouch, your case is far crucial than mine! Feels like having rolled a fumble on a static maneuver roll for "Gambling" or "Purchase."

At least mine is fine for the body of the text and the issue is only in the headers and footers, which is still annoying though.
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: Rasyr-Mjolnir on September 25, 2009, 06:25:00 AM
So, is this kind of mis-printing considered as OK, and no need of replacement, for most of you??

No, and ICE doesn't think that it is OK either, otherwise you would have never been told that you would be sent a replacement.

Your posts come across as if you were complaining that you were told that you would not be sent a replacement, when the only issue is that you are unhappy with the priority that ICE has placed on getting you the replacement book that ICE said you could have.

As for priority, I know that Bruce likes to make lists of everything that he has to get done. Your book still being fully usable likely does make it a lower priority than an unreadable book would be. And I know that sending out books is not the only thing on his list of things to get accomplished.

Maybe I'm an unlucky customer who got a rare misprinted copy and left aside, or I'm just too nitpicky?

Rare misprinted copy - yes.

Left aside - no, you would not be intentionally left aside.

Fell through a crack - This is much more likely - after all, the folks who work at ICE are only human, and do occassionally make mistakes.  :o

Too nitpicky - maybe, maybe not.  ;D Personally, I would say not, but then again ICE did agree to send you a replacement book. The only real issue is ICE not making the replacement as high a priority as you would prefer.

The thing to try to remember is that Bruce is one person trying to do the job of 3 or 4 people (which tends to mean that nothing gets done very quickly  :)). To be able to do this job, he has to prioritize things, and sometimes things do fall through the cracks - as unfortunate as that is.

Add to this, his recent clash with swine flu, and the fact that he is still recuperating from it, and that means that some things have slowed down even more (unfortunately, shipping is one of them).

(http://sky.geocities.jp/ym_thiha74/p_213.JPG)

Edit
----
Somehow, the image fetching function is disabled for this. I don't know why.
Sigh.... OK, I stop posting hereafter. Thanks a lot.

Your image links in your earlier posts are showing up as the following (wrapped in the image tags):

http://C:\Documents and Settings\まさき\デスクトップ\A.jpg

What this is essentially saying is that the images are on your hard drive. And the forums cannot display them because there is no URL that can be used to reach them.

Why the image in the quote wasn't showing up in the thread when I first read it, I don' know, but nobody was intentionally trying to stop you from attaching images to your posts.
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: Marc R on September 25, 2009, 09:53:29 AM
Thiha,

Check out this tutorial on How to upload or insert images into a post

http://www.rpgrm.com/rmsmf/index.php?topic=3523.0

It's a link onto another forum, but it's the same software, so it should work the same way. . . If you're uploading from your PC, you need to use the first (additional options-Upload) method, if you're linking to a picture on a hosted server, you use the second (IMG tags) method.

It looks like you were using the IMG tags on files on your drive, which won't work, you either need to upload the files, or put them up on a hosting server then IMG tag them.

Good luck otherwise!
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol on September 25, 2009, 10:38:29 AM
... And I have been waiting for it for a year now, only to be informed recently that this case was actually considered a low end problem and not a crucial issue for most people, as there were only two persons who reported such case and as I was the only one who tried to get a replacement.
On one hand, I can understand you being a bit upset after this whole time not seeing the replacement you were promised. On the other hand... you waited one full year before contacting I.C.E. again? Wow. Talk about patience! :o
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: Rasyr-Mjolnir on September 25, 2009, 10:49:18 AM
Thiha,

Check out this tutorial on How to upload or insert images into a post

http://www.rpgrm.com/rmsmf/index.php?topic=3523.0

That won't work if the person does not have permission to upload attachments. And right now, most forum members do not have that ability.

Attachments were kept to a few small select groups because of space issues on the old server. ICE can review that policy and perhaps start allowing attachments at some point in the future.

What is odd is that thiha did upload an image and try to post a link to it using the IMG tag in Reply #2 and it was done correctly, and while that image is not showing up in the post (and not in my quote of that post), it DID show up in the previews of it. The only think that I can think of is that the place he uploaded it to is blocking it for some reason.

Anyways, here is the image from Reply #2
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: Marc R on September 25, 2009, 10:53:52 AM
Well, the IMG tag part of the tutorial should still help:

http://www.rpgrm.com/rmsmf/index.php?topic=3523.msg102176#msg102176




Hmm, I can't tell looking at that picture. . .did the page get short cropped through the header, or did some sort of weird plate shift cut off the printed material with blank paper at the top of the page?

I must say, Craggles' image was making me dizzy. . .
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: ICEBruce on September 25, 2009, 11:21:40 AM
Never heard about the SPAM privateers problem before I believe.  That is the old offset run and not a POD issue btw.

The header issue on the RMSR Spell Law was caused by a printer driver issue on that particular file and has been fixed.  We have sold hundreds of the RMSR Spell Law and Thiha was the only person to mention it  that I remember so I consider it a minor issue and still do.  Current inventory does not have the problem.

Thiha however is a collector and I only send him perfect books. The current inventory I have on hand have minor flaws most people would not notice as many books do. When I get a perfect one I will send it to Thiha.  POD hardcovers have a lot of hand work in them and are made individually so there is a natural variation.

I have been selling the RMSR hardcovers for less then normal. I am probably going to move then to paperback now and mark the hardcovers up to normal rates.

Some headers that play no part in the readibility of the book got partially cut off.  The more imporant issue to me is that some of the footers on combat charts were cut off so the page numbers were partially obscured. It is not consistent throughout the book either and I did not even see this the first few times I looked at the book to understand the issue.

Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: ICEBruce on September 25, 2009, 11:48:05 AM
I just went back and looked at the older books I have left over and remembered a few things.

I literally could not see the issues when Thiha described them over email.  So he took photos and sent them to me. That was when I finally got it.  There are only a few pages affected in usability at all in a minor way and those are footer issues.  The header at the top is just a bar and the top 70% was cutoff.  To me if fell into the annoying issue that needs to be fixed and replaced if requested.

It took Sherry and the printer a lot of fiddling anf test runs to figure it out but they did earlier this year.

Thiha used some method to send me the photos that cost him $75 too which was just amazing but I gave him a gift certificate to cover that.  Given that bandwidth is pretty darn cheap some vendor in Japan really sticks it to people.
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: craggles on September 25, 2009, 12:03:11 PM
Hi Bruce

I emailed the above problem to you on 11 May 2009. I'll forward it to you again now and cc Tim so he can forward it onto you if there's a server problem.
(my email address is craig@craigjohn.co.uk in case it's failing to pass through your spam bots) ;)
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: ICEBruce on September 25, 2009, 12:05:22 PM
Dang it

Did you ever get that replacement School of Hard Knocks?  I think I sent it to you.
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: ICEBruce on September 25, 2009, 12:08:00 PM
Any email not going directy to my aol account has been a potential issue ever since the server move.  I can not seem to train my spam filters to routinely pass even the cart routine notifications all the time.  It has been ridiculous.

And the AOL filters have been strange as well on occasion.  My email count is down by about 90% so they are catching a lot more spam then they used to but it has been with a cost.
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: markc on September 25, 2009, 12:08:43 PM
Never heard about the SPAM privateers problem before I believe.  That is the old offset run and not a POD issue btw.

 Actually I had the same problem and I think you sent me a new book. I can also say that the picture does not do it justice as when you look at the pages your mind and eyes go crazy. Or maybe that is just me.
MDC
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: craggles on September 25, 2009, 12:17:52 PM
Hi Mark - I'm very unlucky to be cursed with plenty of cluster headaches and migraines and the funky printing does me no favours. :(
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: ICEBruce on September 25, 2009, 12:26:32 PM
The SPAM book clearly has a usability issue.

It was done on a sheetfeed press long ago and that sheet probably went through twice somehow.  It just happens but I dont check every single book like that even now.  Just too many go through and errors are pretty uncommon.
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: craggles on September 25, 2009, 12:32:48 PM
Hi Bruce,

Yeah, that sheet went through twice - it's effected the whole 16 page section starting with the puncture crit table.

I've forwarded the email again now (to 2 addresses for you and to Tim) and I got the SoHKs in the end - thanks :)
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: markc on September 25, 2009, 12:41:07 PM
The SPAM book clearly has a usability issue.

It was done on a sheetfeed press long ago and that sheet probably went through twice somehow.  It just happens but I don't check every single book like that even now.  Just too many go through and errors are pretty uncommon.
:)
 I do not think anyone has the man power to check every page of every book. But maybe if you can use Chinese Prison Labor you could get the job done. Or I have heard that elementary schools in China again do school projects creating fireworks to raise $ for there schools. Again maybe you could cut a deal to have all of the books looked over by them.
 As a side note just think of the new market! RM China. Now there is a customer base for you.
End  :)
MDC
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: markc on September 25, 2009, 12:44:44 PM
Hi Mark - I'm very unlucky to be cursed with plenty of cluster headaches and migraines and the funky printing does me no favours. :(

 I agree. When I first looked at it I was recovering from my second back surgery and I thought I was having a reaction to the meds instead of a printing problem. I quickly sat down because I was starting to feel dizzy.
 But I go my new book as well as the PDF so I can do what I need to do. And sometimes I do go to the crazy pages just for fun.

 Also an important note for the SM:P book. A lot of the tables were miss printed so you need to download the corrected copies from the vault.
MDC   
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: ICEBruce on September 25, 2009, 01:23:14 PM
no email in my system sigh
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: craggles on September 25, 2009, 02:12:51 PM
Quote
no email in my system sigh

Really? :(
2 email addresses and to Tim too. Did you get it Tim?

I'll PM you the email text and the image attached in my post previously was just a smaller version of the one in the email anyway so I'll leave that one out (unless you'd like to see the larger unabridged version?)

Thanks.
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: ICEBruce on September 25, 2009, 02:14:18 PM
Checked my spam filters and two emails were there

thanks
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: Rasyr-Mjolnir on September 25, 2009, 02:15:08 PM
I got it, and have forwarded it to Bruce (just got back from taking wife to doctor).

Walked in door not 3 minutes ago... hehe

Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: craggles on September 25, 2009, 02:19:43 PM
Quote
I got it, and have forwarded it to Bruce (just got back from taking wife to doctor).

Ach - too late Tim, a large PM to Bruce has already begun it's journey. :P
(and I hope it's nothing serious)
Title: Re: The RMSS Spell Law Hardcover I got
Post by: thiha on September 26, 2009, 09:12:15 PM
Thanks for all of your comments to my posts.

-------------------
To Bruce & Rasyr:

Thank you very much for clarifying the replacement issue.
And my apologies for misunderstanding, and for overestimating the current ICE's manpower.

Bruce wrote:
>Thiha used some method to send me the photos that cost him $75 too which was just amazing but I gave him a gift certificate to cover that.
>Given that bandwidth is pretty darn cheap some vendor in Japan really sticks it to people.

I would't have sent those large photos if I had known the packet transfer communication cost me that much, but sending those photos without knowing it was my own fault. And the gift certificate ICE/Bruce gave me to cover the loss was totally amazing. Thank you again.

Considering the expensive cost to mail international packages and the amount of manpower ICE can assign to deal with customer inquiries and problem fixing activities, I think now the best resolution should have been: (1)  Customer (me) reports the mis-printing issue simply by email, and send smaller images of the examples if requested in reply, (2) ICE refund the charge partially (like $7-9) as the first and final resolution, expecting the time and cost for a replacement would be too much to get a speedy and reasonable settlement. But it's merely my personal opinion.

One, but not least, of the reasons why I unfortunately misunderstood your good intentions and got upset this time must be from the cultural differences between US and Japan that I overlooked.  In Japan, where I'm from, most of the merchants think they should never make customers feel being dealt with low priority. And customers expect the very thing from merchants, too.  I can imagine how the Japanese customers react, or easily get upset, even if they are fan-based, to a merchant who makes them wait for one year because of being "low end." So, I guess it was an unfortunate misunderstanding.

-------------------
To LordMiller &  Rasyr

Thanks for your kind help on how to post images.  I've realised that I tried to upload them from my desktop in a wrong way.  And the image that Rasyr kindly re-uploaded in his post for me was actually stored in a URL where I had to be logging in while manipulating, so I guess the image's not showing up after I logged off the area.  I should've chosen other URLs to upload from. My mistake...sigh.

-------------------
To OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol
>you waited one full year before contacting I.C.E. again?

I sent several reminders while waiting, but I didn't realize that my case was treated as a low end problem.
Now I'm considering myself as was (unlucky + nitpicky + normally patient + upset) ÷4.

-------------------
To craggles
Good-luck for your replacement!