Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: Nejira on January 20, 2009, 09:31:18 AM
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What exact does that spell do? Gamemechanic wise I mean ;)
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I actually got into discussions with Bruce and Heike both regarding this spell, in my attempts to get a proper answer for you.
Simply put, this spell exerts pressure in a single direction.
For example, the lowest level spell could be used to hold down a piece of paper in a light wind, or something along those lines. At higher levels, it could be used to hold a door shut, or to keep somebody from moving forward.
Or it could be used as time bomb trigger (but this IS stretching it) by using the spell to hold a breakable flask in place, and keeping it from falling (would not allow it to levitate something, but pin something to the ceiling, yes). Once the spell ends, the vial falls, breaks, and releases something nasty (toxin, chemical that explode on contact with air, etc..)
Just remember however, that 1 lb of pressure is not a lot of pressure (sea level atmosphere exerts 15 lbs of pressure upon your skiin)
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Oh, thanks. Its such a weird list ;D Dont know if its me or not, but it seems very underpowered, even compared to other Open lists.
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It is underpowered. That was one of the things we discussed....
It is the general consensus that the list was included to make those abilities available, but were purposely underpowered due to a power-gamer that was part of the original group, to keep it from being abused.
This question and digging out a response for it has me thinking about perhaps replacing that list with a new version, one that is more properly balanced...
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Just remember however, that 1 lb of pressure is not a lot of pressure (sea level atmosphere exerts 15 lbs of pressure upon your skiin)
My main problem with the list had always been with the unit. 1 lb per m? isn't much, but it's not the same than 1 lb per mm?, which is already way more significant.
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Well always an idea Rasyr, maybe for the next EA ;D
I would prefer something easier to relate to. Wether its 1lb per m? or mm? is latin to me.
I like to see the list more gaming friendly, like with the telekinesis that you can actually lift something worth while, and if you insist on using the spell as an combat spell well just say it has an RR.
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I have always used "Staying" as a kind of "Anti-telekinesis". If someone is using "Telekinesis" to move an object, you can use "Staying" to make the item stop moving.
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It is underpowered. That was one of the things we discussed....
It is the general consensus that the list was included to make those abilities available, but were purposely underpowered due to a power-gamer that was part of the original group, to keep it from being abused.
This question and digging out a response for it has me thinking about perhaps replacing that list with a new version, one that is more properly balanced...
That's a good idea! A new version of the spell list, balanced and reworded to make spell effects more clear in game-terms would be very cool imho! ;D
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I would prefer something easier to relate to. Wether its 1lb per m? or mm? is latin to me.
Well, that was my point: talking in PA or atm would make more sense since lb. isn't a pressure unit.
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I always assumed the intent was that it was sufficient pressure to immobilize 1 pound (or to counter 1 pound of force). Obviously, the term "pressure" is being misused here, but I'd rather see a clarification of the intent rather than a change to actually using pressure, which is harder to judge on the fly.
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I'd rather see a clarification of the intent rather than a change to actually using pressure, which is harder to judge on the fly.
Yeah, I second that.
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Thing is, the folks who wrote those spells are no longer around, so it would be almost impossible to clarify actual intent. All we can do, at most, is to guess as the original intent.
Which is exactly what I did up above...
And up above, where I say "pressure", I am meaning that the target has that amount of force being applied equally to the entire target in a single direction.
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And up above, where I say "pressure", I am meaning that the target has that amount of force being applied equally to the entire target in a single direction.
But that doesn't mean anything! Since you said that "sea level atmosphere exerts 15 lbs of pressure upon your skiin", I take you spoke in Atm, which equals about 15 psi or pound-force per square inch, and in such a case, yes, 1 psi isn't much. Now, it it were 1 lb. per, say, mm?, that would equal about 6.5 psi, which is way more. Applying a force of 1 lb. on a glass against a wall wouldn't do much; applying a force of 1 lb. on a thumbtack would make it pierce the same wall.
Never mind, there's little use talking about the matter anyway since the authors aren't there any longer.
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The force applied cannot move the object it is being applied against. That is specifically and clearly stated in the spell description.
My comment about air pressure at sea level was meant to show that 15 lbs of pressure is NOT a lot at all. Don't read too much into it.. It was meant to give something to gauge against. (okay so it wasn't a great example after all hehe)
Remember, this spell cannot move an object. The very most that it can do is to hold an object in place.
For example, you could take a glass vial (that weighs less than a 1 lb) and put it against the ceiling, and then cast this spell on the vial and that will hold it in place (and when the spell expires or is canceled, the vial falls). Since the spell will apply 1 lb of force and the vial weighs less, the vial will stay in place (the spell cannot more the object, and the force is in a single direction, so the vial stays put).
For the purpose of this spell 1 lb psi is the same as 1 lb per mm2 because the SAME amount of force is applied to both areas since the spell does not worry about area, only the specific target.
The tricky part comes in dealing with larger object and objects where other force is being applied in an opposing or different direction.
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Rasyr, the point you are missing is that a pound is not a unit of pressure. That's why I'm saying the way to interpret the spell should be to ignore the talk about pressure and just allow it to immobilize a given weight.
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That's why I'm saying the way to interpret the spell should be to ignore the talk about pressure and just allow it to immobilize a given weight.
Does it matter whether or not the weight is moving before you attempt to immobilize it? If you cast 'Staying 10 lbs' on a thrown object weighing 10 lbs 1 oz., what is the effect? Does it matter how fast the object was thrown?
In terms of force, the ft/lbs per second applied by a 9mm slug are not that far from those applied by a car moving at 30 MPH. Would 'Staying 1 lb.' stop the bullet cold and have no effect on the car?
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GrumpyOldFart -- The staying spells are not instantaneous spells, that means that they take time and thus cannot be used against thrown object.
rdanhenry - lb is a unit of measure for pressure, though not one used in international standardizations (SI) -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure
By my reading of the spell, the spell can be used to keep something from moving in a specific direction. It can also be used as a counter force to slow down an object moving in a specific direction (so long as that movement is STILL occurring by the time the spell is cast). What it cannot do is to move an object on its own.
What is problematic about the spell(s) is that there is no comparison of what "lbs of pressure" (used correctly or not, it IS the terms we are stuck with) are involved in other objects/actions.
Consdering when and who wrote the spells, the pressure exerted from the Staying spells SHOULD be considered to be in psi (pounds per square inch) measurements.
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For example, you could take a glass vial (that weighs less than a 1 lb) and put it against the ceiling, and then cast this spell on the vial and that will hold it in place (and when the spell expires or is canceled, the vial falls). Since the spell will apply 1 lb of force and the vial weighs less, the vial will stay in place (the spell cannot more the object, and the force is in a single direction, so the vial stays put).
Errrr, no. If you apply a 1 lb of force on an area of 1 ?m?, you would most certainly punch a hole on your vial but not hold it in place.
rdanhenry - lb is a unit of measure for pressure, though not one used in international standardizations (SI) -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure
Not, it's not. The psi (pound-force per square inch) is, but the pound is not, and your link shows so. Per square inch. The surface unit matters.
Consdering when and who wrote the spells, the pressure exerted from the Staying spells SHOULD be considered to be in psi (pounds per square inch) measurements.
If we consider that by "pound", the author meant "pound-force per square inch" then, yes, it means something but a pound does not equal in any way a psi. The surface unit matters.
I'm sorry if I'm nitpicky, but as someone with a scientific background, it bothers me to no end to see people equalling things that are not equal. It feels like, you know, equalling density with mass because you put out of consideration the volume.
Sorry. >_<
On a completely different matter:The staying spells are not instantaneous spells, that means that they take time and thus cannot be used against thrown object.
Was anyone bothered by how, no matter powerful a being, no one was able to instantly cast a non-instant spell? Did anyone create a house rule about the matter?
(FYI I did but I was wondering)
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Heheh
All I know for sure is that the spell list and the Staying spells are confusingly written and problematic, at best.
If it weren't for the spell's description saying pressure against a person or object, then I would likely agree with rdanhenry that it should apply to an amount of mass that has pressure exerted against it.
Now, dropping the word "pressure" altogether, since it seems to be the main problem, we can replace it with the word "force" as in "pound-force" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound-force and thus the reference to pounds becomes a reference to pounds-force, not "pressure".
The spell description would then read:
2. Staying I - Exerts 1 lb of force on a person or object. Staying alone cannot move object, and force can only be in one direction.
To me, it seems as if the spell is essentially putting something akin to a force field on one side of the object to prevent or slow movement in a specific direction. And as such, whatever force that is applied is applied equally across the entire surface of the object in the direction of movement in which the spell is against.
Another problem regarding these spells is that the Area of Effect for them ALSO limits them to a specific amount of weight (in this case, 1 lb.).
So, 1 lb of force against an object that is 1 lb or less. As somebody mentioned above, the spell seems practically useless at that level.
And it is so confusingly written, that no matter what, somebody isn't going to be happy if any sort of official ruling is made on it (which has NOT been done yet).
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So, mayhap we should read it as: "An object of 1 lb. cannot move in the direction opposite to the one in which the spell is applied." ?
Of course, even then, it's very weak since at level 15 you can only prevent a 100 lbs. item to move. Against what was it designed? Children ? :p
Mmmmhhhh... Now that I think about it, it could work as some kind of force field wall that no item of X lb. or less (in our case, 1 lb.) would be able to cross.
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Might be going out on a limb here, but within a game context is it important that its scientific correct? IMO, its more important that the general idea of a spell (and any other ability/power) can be delievered to the receiver without misunderstandings and with ease of use within said person?s game.
Not to undermine anyone?s RL skills here, and I understand the thrill of finding something in popular literature using the right terms. I found myself raging sometimes over misconceptions, but its a game and a game should be relatively easy to approach without us non-scientific readers having to look every other term up.
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Might be going out on a limb here, but within a game context is it important that its scientific correct? IMO, its more important that the general idea of a spell (and any other ability/power) can be delievered to the receiver without misunderstandings and with ease of use within said person?s game.
:worthy: :wave: :worthy:
I wholly agree with Nejira!! :)
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Well that was the point, the incorrect use of the word "pressure" has been causing misunderstandings for years. No, you shouldn't have to look it up. But if you *do* know what a term means and how it is used, the usage in the spell description shouldn't lead you astray either.
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Might be going out on a limb here, but within a game context is it important that its scientific correct?
Scientifically correct? No. Terminologically correct? Yes. The problem is that we are all making our best guess about what the spell was intended to be, because what was actually written does not have a meaning.
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Was anyone bothered by how, no matter powerful a being, no one was able to instantly cast a non-instant spell? Did anyone create a house rule about the matter?
(FYI I did but I was wondering)
We have used the modifier to cast non-instant spell as a snap action which results for us in using any spell reactively. I realise that's not exactly correct according to the rules, but that's what we did. What do you use?
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Following the logic according to which a caster casts spells 3 levels under his own as Class II and spells 6 levels (and more) under his own as Class I, I had merely stated that a caster casts spells 21 levels under his own as instant spells.