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Systems & Settings => HARP => Topic started by: munchy on January 29, 2006, 12:20:58 PM
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Hi,
I was wondering what the prices for Spell Adders and Power Point Adders are, I can't fine those anywhere in the books.
And I've got a question about the Power Point Adders. In the HARP core text under talents it says that those PPs do not count when calculating the casting modifier, but in the example they do or am I reading wrong? (I handle it the way the example mentions it, i.e. a PP Adder reduces the penalty gained when scaling a spell.)
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Hi,
I was wondering what the prices for Spell Adders and Power Point Adders are, I can't fine those anywhere in the books.
Neither can I.
And I've got a question about the Power Point Adders. In the HARP core text under talents it says that those PPs do not count when calculating the casting modifier, but in the example they do or am I reading wrong? (I handle it the way the example mentions it, i.e. a PP Adder reduces the penalty gained when scaling a spell.)
The character in the example needs 2 extra PPs (normal -10 penalty) due to armor. With the +1 power point adder, he only needs to add 1 extra PP of his own (hence the -5 penalty). No contradiction.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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Neither can I.
Hmm, unfortunate. Any ideas from official side or from the author of "Loot"?
The character in the example needs 2 extra PPs (normal -10 penalty) due to armor. With the +1 power point adder, he only needs to add 1 extra PP of his own (hence the -5 penalty). No contradiction.
So, this means he would still receive -10 if he scaled up a spell by 2 PP although he has got a PP Adder. Sad and a little bit weird that it offsets the PP requirement by Armour but not by scaling.
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The character in the example needs 2 extra PPs (normal -10 penalty) due to armor. With the +1 power point adder, he only needs to add 1 extra PP of his own (hence the -5 penalty). No contradiction.
So, this means he would still receive -10 if he scaled up a spell by 2 PP although he has got a PP Adder. Sad and a little bit weird that it offsets the PP requirement by Armour but not by scaling.
No, it means that he would have a -10 modifier without a +1 PP Adder, and that with the PP Adder he only receives a -5 modifier for a 2PP scaling option.
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Hmm, unfortunate. Any ideas from official side or from the author of "Loot"?
From my perusings of the books the methods to figure the cost of magic items seems to be different resulting in different costs.
I would figure out how much it would be to make permanent a magestaff or holy symbol spell permanent and then up it considering it will be used by someone other than the spellcaster.
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I would figure out how much it would be to make permanent a magestaff or holy symbol spell permanent
Mage Staffs and Holy Symbols *are* permanent. the more powerful they are, though, the longer and harder they are to make - you have to cast the spell on the item once a day (only) for each increase you're giving the item. that's still easier than the rules for making most permanent magic items.
and then up it considering it will be used by someone other than the spellcaster.
"Unkeyed" is a 6PP scaling option for Mage Staff. anyone making PP or spell adders for other people would use that option. makes it easy to figure out the cost.
BTW, speaking of Mage Staff, i have written a set of similar spells to create Wizards Robes (magical armor DB), Wizard's Bracers (magical shield DB), and Wizards Weapon (bonus and elemental crits). with Cleric Sphere and Thaumaturge Circle versions (Thaumaturge versions have unkeyed as an option).
they all start off fairly weak, but have lots of scaling options. essentially, they're a merger of the Mage Staff/Holy Symbol spell and Mage Armor, Spell Resistance, Elemental Resistance and a few cantrips (for Wizard's Robes); Mage Staff plus Magic Shield for Wizard's Bracers; and Mage Staff plus Elemental Weapon and Imbue Bonus for Wizard's Weapon.
they're all pretty much finished - i'm not 100% sure if i've got the right base PP cost for Wizard's Robes. Currently 12PP but i suspect i didn't calculate it right and it should be a little higher - perhaps 14 or even 16. scaling option costs were copied straight from the spells i pinched them from, except for the embedded cantrip options (Remain Dry, Repel Filth, Repel Tiny Insects, and Repair Clothing) for Wizard's Robes. i set them at 2PP each. the other two spells have a base cost of 12PP (same as Mage Staff), and i think i've got them right.
no doubt these spells explain the proliferation of basic magical weapons and armor in high-fantasy campaigns :-)
anyone want them? is there anywhere on this forum to post stuff like that or should i submit them as an article to The Guild Companion?
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anyone want them? is there anywhere on this forum to post stuff like that or should i submit them as an article to The Guild Companion?
Submit them as an article for the Guild Companion and include the Aspect and Attribute costs.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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I second the article for Guild Companion option..
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I second the article for Guild Companion option..
All those in favor say, "Aye!"
*listens as the roar of affirmation dies down*
Motion carried. Next order of business?
:D
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Submit them as an article for the Guild Companion and include the Aspect and Attribute costs.
ok, i'll try to write them up as both a set of new spells and a HOWTO/tutorial on using the CoM spell design rules.
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Submit them as an article for the Guild Companion and include the Aspect and Attribute costs.
ok, i'll try to write them up as both a set of new spells and a HOWTO/tutorial on using the CoM spell design rules.
I need the Aspect and Attribute costs so that I can determine if the spells are legal etc. You don't need to turn it into a HOWTO/tutorial - unless you want to, of course.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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ok, i'll try to write them up as both a set of new spells and a HOWTO/tutorial on using the CoM spell design rules.
I need the Aspect and Attribute costs so that I can determine if the spells are legal etc. You don't need to turn it into a HOWTO/tutorial - unless you want to, of course.
it'll be a useful exercise, to make sure i'm doing it right. i've always found that one of the best ways to learn something is to teach someone else - it forces you to get it right and helps to clarify things.
the more i think about these 3 spells, though, the more i think that they (plus Mage Staff and Holy Symbol) are just specific instances/examples of a generic semi-permanent 'enchant item' spell. unlike real permanent enchantments, items created with these spells can be disenchanted with Dispel Magic...which could be disastrous if, say, an enemy cast Dispel Magic at you while you were using your semi-permanent Belt of Flying. they may become unreliable or even stop working entirely in zones of low ambient mana.
i don't know if being subject to Dispel Magic is what you intended with Mage Staff and Holy Symbol, but it's what i intended with mine. also, most NPCs who know and use this spell *wouldn't* use the "Unkeyed" option for their personal equipment :-)
anyway, i'm thinking i should rewrite it as just one "Enchant Item" spell which can embed almost any spell (subject to GM approval) into an item.
casting this Enchant Item spell requires enough ranks in both Enchant Item AND in the spell(s) to be embedded. the scaling options would be for embedding more than one spell in an item, probably 6PP per extra spell (e.g. a Bonus AND elemental critical), and 6PP for "Unkeyed" items of course, and maybe another option for "At Will" items rather than constant (an "at will" belt of flying is more useful than a constant flying spell. same for a sword that flames at will rather than constantly). and another option to embed a spell cast by someone else - so you don't need to know that spell, only sufficient ranks in the "Enchant Item" spell.
otherwise, it works like Mage Staff - you have to enchant each increase in power, in sequence, once per day. e.g. to embed elemental weapon, you first have to cast it for Tiny crits, then Small, then Medium, and so on.
one possible limitation is to make it require gems with PP capacity greater than or equal to the PP of the embedded spell(s). they get consumed and their 'essence' is merged with that of the item being enchanted. e.g. if you know you'll eventually want your flaming sword to do Large Heat crits, then you should use a gem of sufficient size when first creating the item, even though you only have enough ranks to do Tiny crits right now.
of course, player characters using this spell would soon discover that waiting runes of Dispel Magic are particularly nasty traps :-) they might not kill you outright, but it will be days or weeks before you've got your items enchanted back the way they were. or longer if you had to pay someone else to cast the spells for you.
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Reading this is quite interesting and might warrant it's own thread.
I wouldn't think that dispel magic would work for the standard holy symbol/magestaff spells. If so you could use dispel magic on all magic items as craig pointed out.
I am curious as well as to see what the new spells look like. I do see some abuse possibilities as you get magestaff, magebracers, mageunderwear, magesocks, etc. If anything they look like quite practical and imaginative magic items (nice for the cantrips on the robes) and see how they were 'built'.
The comment that piqued my curiosity is 'they may become unreliable or even stop working entirely in zones of low ambient mana.' It is mostly spell theory/interpretation. Do permanent items, or more specifically ones that have daily uses, recharge through ambient mana? If so low or no magic areas would limit or even prevent their use. Would high ambient mana areas, nodes, grant extra uses? Or do they charge themselves? Or as mentioned later, using fixed mana sources as batteries for them - that would be used up in the initial casting or perhaps need to be replaced later. Fascinating possiblilties.
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I wouldn't think that dispel magic would work for the standard holy symbol/magestaff spells.
dunno. that's up to Nicholas.
If so you could use dispel magic on all magic items as craig pointed out.
actually, that's the exact opposite of what i said.
permanent magic items (the ones created by the methods in Loot and CoM) aren't affected by Dispel Magic.
semi-permanent ones, like those created by these spells, ARE affected by Dispel Magic.
I am curious as well as to see what the new spells look like. I do see some abuse possibilities as you get magestaff, magebracers, mageunderwear, magesocks, etc. If anything they look like quite practical and imaginative magic items (nice for the cantrips on the robes) and see how they were 'built'.
i guess i should explicitly state it in the description, but you can only wear one set of wizard's robes at a time. wearing individual pieces of a set are treated the same as Armor by the Piece. the DB bonus is cumulative with other items (incl. real armor - so a fighter could wear an enchanted tabard over his plate armor) and spells etc, but is not cumulative with the Mage Armor spell (i.e. itself - you can't cast Mage Armor twice on yourself).
same with other spells embedded by Enchant Item. if the spell is normally cumulative with other spells/items then it is still cumulative in its embedded form. otherwise it isn't. e.g. Imbue Bonus isn't cumulative with itself (you can't cast multiple unscaled +5 Imbue Bonus spells to get +20, you have to cast a scaled up +20 Imbue Bonus) but it is cumulative with unrelated spells like Boost Strength.
also, the Enchant Item spell is mostly intended for Utility spells, but it can be used for Attack (incl. Elemental Attack) spells too. However, while Utility spells can be Constant or At Will, attack spells can't be. they can only be Daily....starting as Daily I, but with scaling options for more times per day.
The comment that piqued my curiosity is 'they may become unreliable or even stop working entirely in zones of low ambient mana.' It is mostly spell theory/interpretation. Do permanent items, or more specifically ones that have daily uses, recharge through ambient mana? If so low or no magic areas would limit or even prevent their use.
that was a way of differentiating the semi-permanent items made by these spells from "real" magic items made by the methods described in CoM & Loot. these semi-permanent items are useful, but they have some limitations and some drawbacks/vulnerabilities. they're also not worth as much as real permanent items. i.e. TANSTAAFL....second-rate magic items just aren't as good as first-rate ones.
of course, these spells are really only appropriate for high-magic campaigns. unless they are the closely guarded secret of a particular guild (fabulously wealthy from the sales of such items), their existence almost inevitably results in the proliferation of magic items for nearly every purpose.
Would high ambient mana areas, nodes, grant extra uses? Or do they charge themselves? Or as mentioned later, using fixed mana sources as batteries for them - that would be used up in the initial casting or perhaps need to be replaced later. Fascinating possiblilties.
yep, fascinating. and makes nodes quite valuable real estate. i think they have lots of possibilities - i'm already starting to think of an earthnode based postal network (for letters and parcels) run by the Courier's Guild...who are competing for access to earth-nodes with a Traveller's Guild (sort of similar to Navigators in Shadow World). in some places, it's outright warfare. in others they are forced by the local rulers to co-operate and grudgingly share access.
nodes are also in demand as sites for churches, temples, cathedrals etc, magic colleges, wizard's towers, alchemist laboratories, magic forges, rituals, and much more.
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actually, that's the exact opposite of what i said.
permanent magic items (the ones created by the methods in Loot and CoM) aren't affected by Dispel Magic.
semi-permanent ones, like those created by these spells, ARE affected by Dispel Magic.
I was referring, or attmepting to rather, to the difference between the really permanent and not-so permanent spell and the potential of dispel magic becoming the most powerful spell in the game. I forgot what the AD&D uber dispel was that would eliminate all enchanted items too.
yep, fascinating. and makes nodes quite valuable real estate. i think they have lots of possibilities - i'm already starting to think of an earthnode based postal network (for letters and parcels) run by the Courier's Guild...who are competing for access to earth-nodes with a Traveller's Guild (sort of similar to Navigators in Shadow World). in some places, it's outright warfare. in others they are forced by the local rulers to co-operate and grudgingly share access.
nodes are also in demand as sites for churches, temples, cathedrals etc, magic colleges, wizard's towers, alchemist laboratories, magic forges, rituals, and much more.
Inserting shameless plug - check out the Speaker of the Green clerical order I wrote up at the GC as it seems we are on a similar wavelength. I am still in the process of writing two more related classes - thaumaturge variant with high magic emphasis & ranger variant. Sorry Nicholas I didn't get it to you for this month, too much other stuff.
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Hi,
I was wondering what the prices for Spell Adders and Power Point Adders are, I can't fine those anywhere in the books.
According the JDale spreadsheet a PP adder cost 15 DP and reduces all spell costs by 1 while a Spell adder cost 10 DP to purchase and provides the power for 1 spell for 1 day.
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From College of Magic, page 109, the capter on magical enchantment
Spell Adders: A Spell Adder allows its possessor to cast
one or more spells that he knows without using any of his
own Power Points. Spells cast using a Spell Adder must meet
normal casting requirements (in that a caster remains limited
by known skill ranks) but scaled spells are allowed and only
armor modifiers are applied to the casting roll. The number
of free spells is given by the Spell Adder?s rating, which ranges
from +1 to +5, with lower rated adders being more common
than higher rated devices. A spell user may only use one Spell
Adder in any 24-hour period. This means that if the character
has already used an Adder that day, he may not change it
out to a more powerful one until the next day.
Both types of spell casting device are created through
the use of spells, namely Holy Symbol (Cleric Sphere) and
Magestaff (Magician and Thaumaturge Circles). Holy
Symbol is only able to create adders for the personal use of
its caster. Magestaff can be scaled to create adders usable
by anyone as well as adders in shapes other than the
traditional wooden or metal staff.
The way I read it, College of Magic states that Power Point Adders does not negate Casting Penalty from Armor. What is the official ruling on this??
Also, the creation of Power Point / Spell Adders are not covered by the normal item creation spells of a Thaumaturge, only by the Magestaff or Holy Symbol Spell. This means PP/Spell adders are created very quickly even if they are very powerfull. A +5 PP/Spell Adder would take 5 dats to make if you have enough ranks, but another magical item of similar power would probably take months to make. I dunno what the rest of you think, but I think the Adders are a bit to easy to make.
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From College of Magic, page 109, the capter on magical enchantment
Spell Adders: A Spell Adder allows its possessor to cast
one or more spells that he knows without using any of his
own Power Points. [...]
The way I read it, College of Magic states that Power Point Adders does not negate Casting Penalty from Armor. What is the official ruling on this??
that section you quoted was talking about Spell Adders, not Power Point Adders.
PP Adders supply some of the PP for every spell cast. if a +1 adder, then it supplies 1 PP. if a +3 adder, then it supplies 3 PP. these PP can be applied against any PP required by the spell being cast - the base cost, any scaling costs, or the PP cost of wearing armour.
Spell Adders allow the caster to cast any spell they know with any scaling options, without any PP cost and with no scaling penalties (and i guess that means that any spells cast with the adder only take 1 round no matter how much they are scaled up). the only penalties to the casting roll are the normal armor penalties.
Also, the creation of Power Point / Spell Adders are not covered by the normal item creation spells of a Thaumaturge, only by the Magestaff or Holy Symbol Spell. This means PP/Spell adders are created very quickly even if they are very powerfull. A +5 PP/Spell Adder would take 5 dats to make if you have enough ranks, but another magical item of similar power would probably take months to make. I dunno what the rest of you think, but I think the Adders are a bit to easy to make.
OTOH, some could see it that the Magestaff/Holy Symbol is subject to a Dispel Magic spell because it is an active spell rather than an embedded enchantment like in a permanent magic item. which would be very annoying if bad guy NPCs started casting dispel magic at PC mages. easy come, easy go.
oh, and the rank requirement isn't trivial. you'd have to have at least 37 ranks to make a +5 adder (i.e. a minimum of 12th level), and the casting penalty would be horrendous: 24 ranks of scaling is -120 to the casting roll. 37 skill ranks adds +86, leaving a total of -34. you'd have to roll a 37 or higher (so approximately 2/3rds chance of succes).
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Also, the creation of Power Point / Spell Adders are not covered by the normal item creation spells of a Thaumaturge, only by the Magestaff or Holy Symbol Spell. This means PP/Spell adders are created very quickly even if they are very powerfull. A +5 PP/Spell Adder would take 5 dats to make if you have enough ranks, but another magical item of similar power would probably take months to make. I dunno what the rest of you think, but I think the Adders are a bit to easy to make.
oh, and the rank requirement isn't trivial. you'd have to have at least 37 ranks to make a +5 adder (i.e. a minimum of 12th level), and the casting penalty would be horrendous: 24 ranks of scaling is -120 to the casting roll. 37 skill ranks adds +86, leaving a total of -34. you'd have to roll a 37 or higher (so approximately 2/3rds chance of succes).
The math looks somewhat suspect here. 24 PPs of scaling is indeed -120. 37 skill ranks is +87
+87 - 120 = -33 to the roll. To make a Utility spell happen, you need 71 or more as a result.
Without taking into account stats, Talents, or extra preparation time, it will require the caster to open end to create a +5 adder. So about 1 in 20 chance.
Taking extra time will reduce the penalty to -3, but that still means rolling 74 or better to make the grade. One in four chance.
Anyone who puts 37 skill ranks into this spell deserves a +5 adder.
Note that magic item creation in HARP is measured in days, not the weeks of Rolemaster, and multiple imprints can be done on a single day, so five days to power up a magestaff is not so far-fetched.
Best wishes,
Nicholas.
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Also I would suspect that any caster making a PP adder or spell adder will use the Extra Casting time rule on pg 108 to gain the +30 bonus to the casting maneuver, unfortunately this option is impractical (if not suicidal) for combat spells.
Best regards
Steve
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oh, and the rank requirement isn't trivial. you'd have to have at least 37 ranks to make a +5 adder (i.e. a minimum of 12th level), and the casting penalty would be horrendous: 24 ranks of scaling is -120 to the casting roll. 37 skill ranks adds +86, leaving a total of -34. you'd have to roll a 37 or higher (so approximately 2/3rds chance of succes).
The math looks somewhat suspect here. 24 PPs of scaling is indeed -120. 37 skill ranks is +87
+87 - 120 = -33 to the roll. To make a Utility spell happen, you need 71 or more as a result.
doh! i subtracted the penalty from 71 (to get 37 as the roll 'target') rather than adding it (to get 104).
i actually thought that seemed a bit easy when i posted but didn't stop to wonder why or check the math.
and, of course, stat bonuses, focus item, and Eloquence talent will also help.
(and, noted: +87 rather than +86).
Anyone who puts 37 skill ranks into this spell deserves a +5 adder.
yep, i agree. it seems very powerful (and it is), but it is very expensive to develop enough ranks in this spell - 74 development points. that's a lot for any spell - especially for a spell that's really only going to be used a few times (unless the caster wants to make money on the side by creating adders for other people).
how much is a +5 adder worth? a high level mage could churn out a few per week (can only cast it on each magestaff once/day but with enough PPs they could make two or more at once). there probably aren't many people who could afford them, though.
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I was wondering what the prices for Spell Adders and Power Point Adders are, I can't fine those anywhere in the books.
Back to the original question.
Anyone have any sensible prices in gold for the adders?? DP cost just does not hold up when the players walk into the magic shop. I was about to look up the prices in my old rolemaster books when i remembered that magic works a bit different in HARP, Spell Adders might be more or less the same, but PP adders are non exsisting in RM as I far as I remember.
I took a quick look in Loot to see if any of the items there had adder effects and if so what their prices were. This is what I found.
The Acen Amulet for 1003 GP is a +4 Spell Adder
The Dovren Amulet for 361 GP is a +1 Spell Adder
the Earring of the Wild for 340 can be a +1 Spell Adder for Rangers
in the Treasure section of the HARP rulebook I found:
The Torc of Power for 2500 GP is a +3 PP Adder
Zural's Ring for 2000 GP is a +2 PP Adder
There are other items too, but thay have other powers in addittion to the PP/Spell adder effect.
I get the feeling these items are priced more by sticking a finger into the air than looking at a nice little pricing table that was left out of the book.
Any thoughts on this??
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No, it means that he would have a -10 modifier without a +1 PP Adder, and that with the PP Adder he only receives a -5 modifier for a 2PP scaling option.
All right, so scaling options can be used but do not give a modification to the spell roll when using a spell adder for that spell. What about the reduction of time? This modification is still added, right?
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Back to the original question.
Anyone have any sensible prices in gold for the adders?? Any thoughts on this??
My opinion: Its completely campaign dependant. Really. You must decide the kind of scenario you are DMing in.
The most important thing to me is: are you ready to take into your campaign economy easy to make in 3 days magic itens? In practical terms there is no limits to how many spell adders a caster could do on a month. The most likely limits would be the common sense and some other house-rule.
Sorry to use a D20 example but here it goes: how guys at Wizards settled this? They have put a XP cost on itens in addition to the gold cost. Basicaly the HARP equivalent would be charge the PC/NPC with a couple of DPs when making permanent magical itens.
This introduces some limits, so the characters would not feel tempted to just become a Mc?Donnalds Style Factory of Mage Staves, and would still be able to make a few from time to time.
The second way to deal with this without arbitraty prohibitive actions is just make all such spell casting a slow procces that take days instead of seconds (using ritual magic style).
Botton line is: to most campaigns - where magic itens are not a commodity - is inadequate to just make magic itens at will.
Regards friends. =D
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What about the reduction of time? This modification is still added, right?
In fact PP adders are such marvelous things. They indeed reduce all PP costs making spell casting "faster' by eliminating any extra PPs.
Nice example Example:
Using a +2 PP adder and the talent Potency:
Large Fire Bolt
Base cost = 4 +2(for potency) = 6
Scalling to Medium = +2 (covered by PP adder)
Scalling to Large = +2
Total PP cost = 10 - 2 = 8 PPs
So you only need (-10) penalty to cast in 1 round and another (-10) for the 2 extra PPs not covered by the PP adder.
This is the way I see it. Pls tell me if I am wrong. ;)
The only thing I worry is that I check if the character is allowed that much scalling (by check the ranks in the skill) before any PP adder effect. So in my game, even if you use some powerfull artifact that is a +30 PP adder you can?t scale up your Fire Bolt if you only have 4 ranks.