Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMSS/FRP => Topic started by: broodhunter on April 27, 2008, 03:10:08 PM
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I am planning on running a Black Ops campaign, and have run across a question. It states that melee attacks can be resolved using arms law. Thats not a problem, but what armor types do you use for melee attacks against modern Armor Types (AT I through IV)? Also, if any of you have seen the episode of future weapons that included the new armor refered to as Dragon Scale (I'm not kidding!) I am wondering how to handle that as a modern armor, as it can absorb full bursts from an AK-47 at less than 20 feet, which defys everything I know of modern body armor. I was thinking along the lines of rating it as a Class IV armor, but decreasing the ME chart of the weapon against it. Any thoughts?
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You might want to look into getting 10 Milion Ways to Die. It has numerous firearms charts (and other stuff) as well as the Armor Types I - IV. As for the Dragon Scale, I had heard that it was the best so far, but nothing about it being able to stop 7.62 mm rounds at such close ranges (or any ranges other than extreme)! For that you could just represent it having an additional DB bonus, that is usuazlly how the game handles superior armors.
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Theres been a lot of mixed reviews and comments on Dragonskin / scale/whichever
Suffice to say that no military force in the world has actually adopted it, to my knowledge
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for such a resistant Armour, I would give it a Decent DB bonus to reflect that.
But first Get 10 mil ways to die and find an armour type against a weapon you think represents well enough that AK and then decide what you think would be a decent adjustment.
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The primitive weapons verses modern armours is a big hole in Black Ops. Fortunately Space Master has a decent number of tables that plug the hole.
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Ten Million ways to die has all the tables you want with columns for Black Ops armors.
For dragon skin, it could ignore weapons below a certain ME, reduce the ME of weapons, or reduce crits by II and 1/2 hits, etc. A DB bonus always make armor more effective also. There are lots of options.
lynn
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I've always wished ICE would have done a universal character creation book to go with Ten Million Ways to Die and And a Ten Foot Pole.
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I can say that I hate 10 MwtD.
From the Black OP's note you can go to Firearms Law which has the chart for converting AT I to AT IV to arms law charts and back. I will see if I can put those note up on the boards or not. The table is alsi listed in SM:P, SM:P BL I believe.
For Dragon Scale armor I wuld use it like kinetic armor in Space Master Privateers, which ignores crits. Or if ou think that is too powerful just drop all crits by a number depending on the ME of the weapon. ie -4 levels of crits for ME 1-5, which you would need a E crit to do an A crit. In this case the crit reduction is if the crit reduction reduces the crit below A then thier is not crit.
MDC
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...or ME reduction with reduced hits AND covered areas take ballistic impact crits, not puncture/shrapenel.
There are lots of choices. Experiment.
lynn
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Theres been a lot of mixed reviews and comments on Dragonskin / scale/whichever
Suffice to say that no military force in the world has actually adopted it, to my knowledge
From what I have read on several sites, including Defense Review, there seems to be a problem because a certain general has gone out of his way to block its adoption, which seems to be linked to his particular preference to the company that makes the current body armor, interceptor. Pinnicle has a standing invitation for the other lab to do a side by side, live fire comparison, and they have never stepped up. Defense Review was so critical as to use the word Treason in conjunction with that General....those are strong words for an independent observer.
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Theres been a lot of mixed reviews and comments on Dragonskin / scale/whichever
Suffice to say that no military force in the world has actually adopted it, to my knowledge
From what I have read on several sites, including Defense Review, there seems to be a problem because a certain general has gone out of his way to block its adoption, which seems to be linked to his particular preference to the company that makes the current body armor, interceptor. Pinnicle has a standing invitation for the other lab to do a side by side, live fire comparison, and they have never stepped up. Defense Review was so critical as to use the word Treason in conjunction with that General....those are strong words for an independent observer.
I have heard the same thing as well as soem more tieing it to the current administartion. The excuse they gave was it would cost too much to change right now with the current deployed force and logistics.
Still they have not said that you cannot buy the armor and wear it in the field. So from what I heard a number of troops and their families are pooling their money and buying Dragon Scale for the troops. IMO this is a good thing and a bad thing all in one.
I also like the test Dragon Skin did on Future Weapons where they put a gernade under the armor and the gernade did not sufficiently penatrat the vest.
BTW, thank you troops for serving in the armed forces.
MDC
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Broodhunter,
I have found the info in SM:P Equipment Man. are you sure it is not in a errata file for Black OP's in ICE's download section? I have not checked the download section in quite a while but I thought it was there that I had orrigonaly get the info from.
I am just waiting on some feedback from another mod and then I will have a answer for you on if I can post the info.
MDC
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Here is the information I found.
After about 10 min of looking in quite a few books I finally found it in SM:P Equipemtn Man. The info is in a chart but all I would provide is the following AT I= AT 9(+10), AT II= AT 10(+10), AT III=AT 11(+10) and AT IV= AT 12(+10) using the realistic approch.
Now there are two ways of using the modern AT's with Arms Law and I gave you the realistic version. I also checked in the errata section and I did not find any info for Black OP's their so I would not go looking for it. Also in the past someone had been talking about making a errata sheet for Black OP's and I am suprised it is not up thier.
Hope that helps.
MDC
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Also, if any of you have seen the episode of future weapons that included the new armor refered to as Dragon Scale (I'm not kidding!) I am wondering how to handle that as a modern armor, as it can absorb full bursts from an AK-47 at less than 20 feet, which defys everything I know of modern body armor.
ok, I'm waaaaaaaaaaaay late in posting/replying, but I just found the thread...
Yes the Dragon Scale can, from my understanding/reading/viewing, take a burts of autofire from an AK with out penetration.
HOWEVER, and there's always one of those aint there?
Without really giving the full answer away till the very end, think about this... there is a signifigant ammount of kenetic energy being transfered from the projectile to the impact site. that's for each bullet mind you. So when you are impacting multiple rounds in a fairly tight group, that is assuming that the one doing the shooting knows what he's doing, so that will multiple the amount of energy being transfered into the target.
Now then, when I was active duty we carried a .45 after long and heated discussion on the subject. the reaon being is that even if my target is armored, 2 shots to the chest is going to deliver such an impact and energy trnasfer that even with a trama plate, odds are that I can cause his heart to stop beating.
I'll let you draw your own conclusions from there and hope I havent fully shot my mouth off.
Cheers!
Allen
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You do really need weapons law to use Black Ops to best ability. I have a copy (actually 2) that I'd be willing to sell for $10.00 (each) - I also have a copy of Black Ops that I would let go for $10.00 (or take all 3 for $25.00 plus shipping).
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How about a copy of Sea Law you would be willing to let go for $10 ?
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 Also, if any of you have seen the episode of future weapons that included the new armor refered to as Dragon Scale (I'm not kidding!) I am wondering how to handle that as a modern armor, as it can absorb full bursts from an AK-47 at less than 20 feet, which defys everything I know of modern body armor.Â
ok, I'm waaaaaaaaaaaay late in posting/replying, but I just found the thread...
Yes the Dragon Scale can, from my understanding/reading/viewing, take a burts of autofire from an AK with out penetration.
HOWEVER, and there's always one of those aint there?
Without really giving the full answer away till the very end, think about this... there is a signifigant ammount of kenetic energy being transfered from the projectile to the impact site. that's for each bullet mind you. So when you are impacting multiple rounds in a fairly tight group, that is assuming that the one doing the shooting knows what he's doing, so that will multiple the amount of energy being transfered into the target.
Now then, when I was active duty we carried a .45 after long and heated discussion on the subject. the reaon being is that even if my target is armored, 2 shots to the chest is going to deliver such an impact and energy trnasfer that even with a trama plate, odds are that I can cause his heart to stop beating.
I'll let you draw your own conclusions from there and hope I havent fully shot my mouth off.
Cheers!
Allen
Yep, and thats why you can ignore hits but should still roll a balistic impact crit, for knockdown, broken bones, etc.
lynn
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All:
It was suggested that this might be a good place to ask a question about modern - near future protectile weapons.
I'm preparing my own firearms catalog for a near future game I'm going to run using SM. I have Weapons Law: Firearms, however the largest caliber listed is ye olde .50 BMG.
So I'm looking for data/charts/tables for some odd rounds. If I can get something 'close' then I can go with that no problem. but... well it's the larger calibers that are throwing off my mojo.
To give you an idea of what I'm looking at, .50 cal is equal to 12.7mm (for the most part) so I need data for:
13.5mm
15mm
20mm Lathai
30mm Arnar
20, 30, and 40mm grenades
but wait! there's more!!!
20, 30, 45 and 65mm Rockets
so it's more along the lines of heavy weapons.
any suggestions?
even if it's not an ICE product?
puh-leeeeeeze?
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Allen,
Are you looking for damage done to people or to objects and vehicles? Some of these can be handeled by SM2 Armored Assault and Star Strike or SM:P Blaster Law and Vehicle Law.
But you say you have WL:F I am not up on my 13.5 mm+ rounds but are they listed in the charts at the back of the book for other weapons? Also there is a table at the begining of WL:F for kinetic energy to ME table that should help. Also there are rules for gernades in varous books and I believe that there is also some errata in the Vault on them.
The big one IMO is that for area affect weapons targets are only going to get a fraction of the overall damage potential, so may want to use a chart in WL:F but change the crits to adjust to the weapon.
Also can you give me a brief listing of the book you have so I might be able to point you in a direction.
MDC
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Here is the information I found.
After about 10 min of looking in quite a few books I finally found it in SM:P Equipemtn Man. The info is in a chart but all I would provide is the following AT I= AT 9(+10), AT II= AT 10(+10), AT III=AT 11(+10) and AT IV= AT 12(+10) using the realistic approch.
Now there are two ways of using the modern AT's with Arms Law and I gave you the realistic version. I also checked in the errata section and I did not find any info for Black OP's their so I would not go looking for it. Also in the past someone had been talking about making a errata sheet for Black OP's and I am suprised it is not up thier.
Hope that helps.
MDC
Thanks for that. I was going to use AT 5, 6, 9, 10 respectively for types I, II, III, IV. ( I figured the lightweight ballistic cloth.. such as vest worn under clothes, wouldn't be as effective against weapons because of the coverage. I also wasn't planning on giving a DB bonus unless the specific area covered was hit...
There is an optional rule in WL:F that states you use AT 1 for all areas NOT covered, guess I would use that rule, though since you only generally know where the shot landed AFTER the critical is rolled it could add to complications. So I'm not entirely sure how to do that, apart from using a lesser AT and reducing crit results that hit the body....
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I would use AT2 as IMO that is a better representation for unarmored areas. I also use AT2 for Arms Law charts and for SM:P. Fast animals I let use the AT 1 chart.
MDC
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MDC
I have te following:
Weapons Law: Firearms
Spacemaster tech book
SM Player Book
SM GM Book
SM Tech Law
SM Star Strike
SM Future Law
SM Companion
SM Armored Reserves
and SM Vessel Compedium I, II and III
and CyberSpace for the cyber stuff and drugs
Thanks for the assist on this. I really appreciate it.
Allen,
Are you looking for damage done to people or to objects and vehicles? Some of these can be handeled by SM2 Armored Assault and Star Strike or SM:P Blaster Law and Vehicle Law.
But you say you have WL:F I am not up on my 13.5 mm+ rounds but are they listed in the charts at the back of the book for other weapons? Also there is a table at the begining of WL:F for kinetic energy to ME table that should help. Also there are rules for gernades in varous books and I believe that there is also some errata in the Vault on them.
The big one IMO is that for area affect weapons targets are only going to get a fraction of the overall damage potential, so may want to use a chart in WL:F but change the crits to adjust to the weapon.
Also can you give me a brief listing of the book you have so I might be able to point you in a direction.
MDC
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I did a little looking but I could not find the info you needed for the 20mm Lan you need the Kinetic Energy. Also from looking it said it was a large round but did not have the power to get through armor. IMO this would drop the attack value but IMO the KE would give you that info.
All you need in the Kinetic Energy of the round to get a chart in WL:F.
Also you did not tell me for which type of attack. On a person or on a vehicle.
For personal I would use the WL:F chart and for vehicles I would use the charts for Armored Assault.
I will gladly help in any other way but I do not have time to look up things on the internet for you.
MDC
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I bought a TWILIGHT: 2000 Series Module lately. It is the U.S. Army Vehicle Guide.
In it there are all the tanks, artillery, aux vehicle with their weaponary (date 1986/2000 ?).
There are charts of that weapons, but to understand the weapon code I surely have to read the main system. I know there are other Series Modules
So perhaps a product from this line, may help you to compare heavy weapons against normal one to adjust your firearms catalog for use with Xmaster * (and HARP SF).
And then upload it to the vault. :working: :whip:
__
* Xmaster = Rolemaster and Spacemaster
It seems that TWILIGHT: 2000 is a table top game ...
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I have the TW2000 US Army Vehicle Guide also and I love it. Some of the other ones I like are the Russian Vehicle Guide and an article I picked up in a mag somewhere about aircraft and helows.
In the past I have also created weapons in T3's Fire Fusion and Steel and used the KE of the weapon for the ME chart in WL:F.
R. Defendi talks about support weapons being used in man to man combat in SM:P VM I think but I also seam to reember it being talked about in SM2 somewhere.
MDC
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Sorry about that. I was at work and trying to get out of there for the day.
In my weapons catalog I've got hand guns from .5mm needlers (pretty much out of SM2) up to a 13.5mm hand cannon. in long arms I have some needlers (3mm) then actual firearms from 4mm up to to 15mm (The former USSR/Soviets actually produce a 15mm AMR or Anti Material Rifle that fires this round).
then there are the grenade launchers.
in my world a 20mm grenade is equal in power to a real world 40mm (i.e. from an M203).
Let's not forget rockets! Never know when you're going to find a shoulder fired rocket... or that mini 20mm rocket launcher.
anyways... any and all of these weapons could be used against either personel or vehichals.
I think I've got some reading to do when it comes to WL:F.......
I did a little looking but I could not find the info you needed for the 20mm Lan you need the Kinetic Energy. Also from looking it said it was a large round but did not have the power to get through armor. IMO this would drop the attack value but IMO the KE would give you that info.
All you need in the Kinetic Energy of the round to get a chart in WL:F.
Also you did not tell me for which type of attack. On a person or on a vehicle.
For personal I would use the WL:F chart and for vehicles I would use the charts for Armored Assault.
I will gladly help in any other way but I do not have time to look up things on the internet for you.
MDC
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well, from the other posts there seems to be some interest in data/talbes/charts/etc. for heavy weapons... I'm just not sure how to go about figuring out what the hits would be... I suppose I could just stick with the Impact/Balistic/Shrapenel charts for crits...
thoughts?
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I would check out HTTP://world.guns.ru as they have a lot of good info. But I do not know why I did not check there first instead of just doing google search. Must be my cold/flu/something bad.
MDC
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How about a copy of Sea Law you would be willing to let go for $10 ?
I have the rulebook for Sea Law, but none of the other components, and would let it go for $10.00 (don't forget the shipping).
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How about a copy of Sea Law you would be willing to let go for $10 ?
I have the rulebook for Sea Law, but none of the other components, and would let it go for $10.00 (don't forget the shipping).
The counters for Sea Law are available in the Vault:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item158
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Yup, I have that site book marked at home. heh
I guess what I'm looking/hoping for is some pre-existing ICE type charts for hits for weapons of this size and caliber. really dont wanna have to try and complie it myself as, to be honest, I dont think I know what I'm doing.
I would check out HTTP://world.guns.ru as they have a lot of good info. But I do not know why I did not check there first instead of just doing google search. Must be my cold/flu/something bad.
MDC
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Doesn't SM have vehicle mounted weapons that fall into the right range, then rules for using vehicle mounted weapons on characters?
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Lord Miller,
Yes SM:VM and SM:P BL do have some rules for using support weapons on PC's as well as vehicles. They also give a range of options for you to use in your game depending on how powerful you awnt to make support weapons on people or personal weapon attacks on vehicles.
Allen,
I cant give away that much info in a book but I can say that you are going to have to do some work on your own to get the stats for the weapons you listed above.
BTW, the stuff I found on the 13.5mm was not that great and IMO a US M2 would do more damage as there wsa not enought powerderr in the round to accelerate the bullet mass effectivly.
A side note on Future Weapons the other day they talked about a company using a computer to design a round and then designed the weapon to fire it. Got to love technology.
MDC
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If I'm not mistaken, Allen will also find all the info he needs on explosives and grenades in SM also.
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Thanks to everyone, I really appreciate the help. :)
I'll let you know how it goes... gonna get to reading now. :)
~A
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Go figure... LOL... just as I was nearing completion, the catalog begins to evolve again...
New, 100% original pics/images of all weapons.
not sure how long this will delay the project but...
I've passed on to 3 people outside of my immediate game group from here on the boards and so far the response has been possitive and thus the original art.
So... I've decided "WTF, let's do it big." heh
I think my group is going to have kittens when they get the final version and the game starts. LOL
hrmm... this turned out to be more of a blog type posting, didnt it?
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Did you find everything you needed in SM, or did you need to "Make it up"?
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I 'modified' things a little for the heavier weapons that I put into play.
ME29 from Weapons Law: Firearms is the highest chart for the .50 cal BMG round (as fired by the beloved Browning M2). the .50 is a 12.7mm... so for 20mm I doubled the hits (but not the crit) of ME29, 30mm is x3 and 40mm is x4.
Perhaps not the best method, but it's what I had.
Needlers and grenades/explosives are right outta SM:T for the most part; for my home brew I just present them with different names. Instead of a Mk1 greande, I call it a class 'A' is all.
All the rest of the guns are pretty straight forward for the WL:F book, each is assigned what I've deemed to be the appropriate chart and think I came out pretty damn good and with what I wanted. :)
MDC seems to like it well enough and still hoping you, LM, find the time to look it over too. :)
AAA
Did you find everything you needed in SM, or did you need to "Make it up"?
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It's up to #1 on my list. . .I did say it'd take a few weeks. . . ;D I got a lot done last night.
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No worries, jsut giving you a hard time. :)
It's up to #1 on my list. . .I did say it'd take a few weeks. . . ;D I got a lot done last night.
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I'm actually a professional nag, so my tolerence level is pretty high.
Sent you your reply, interesting stuff.
Beyond Allen, how many people are playing RM/SM for modern (or relatively modern) settings?
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I have used it for a pre-set for a fantasy game as well as for a Call of C. game.
MDC
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s'funny, in that all the games I can think of using RM/SM that weren't fantasy or sci-fi are victorian, rather than straight modern. (Or are you talking 1920's CoC?)
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I was doing a 1990's CoC, which I also have the book for. I have used some of the same adventures for 1990's and 1920's and they work fine with a little tweeking. I have a fair amount of CoC stuff because I liked RQ before I found RM.
Any way you should try it out as in general your group does not expect it.
MDC
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Beyond Allen, how many people are playing RM/SM for modern (or relatively modern) settings?
Me. 2-WW Submarine "Cthuluesque" Historical/Horror and 1930's Pulp as PBF games (at RMrpg.com ;)). I've also run a Vietnam, Pennisular War Historical and another WW2 based historical/horror set in Finand, all as convetion -type scenarios.
To be honest I've used the system more often for stuff that isn't straight generic fantasy/Sci-fi.....
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Beyond Allen, how many people are playing RM/SM for modern (or relatively modern) settings?
I used RMFRP+BlackOps+Firearms for a very realistic kind of Jack Ryan campaing. PCs were CIA agents operating in the 80's.
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wow... these are all some might fine ideas!
I was a player in a CoC'ish game years ago. I'd never played CoC before and it was kind of a going away game (3 sessions) for our GM who was moving out of state. The first time some 'monster' showed up we all freaked out cuz we had NO idea it was gonna be CoC related at all. and my not having any idea about the genre... well I couldn't help but blurt, "OMG! WTF is that?!" We were supposed to be a new SEAL Team.... and man did we get our collective butts handed to us. good times, good times. :)
~A
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Beyond Allen, how many people are playing RM/SM for modern (or relatively modern) settings?
I don't know if western counts as modern. I have done that several times. I did once use Black Ops as an actual ....Black Ops setting.
I am so unoriginal.
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I have ran pulp, black ops, modern and western, along with sci fi. I did not like the western game at all (it turned into a pulp game chasing down an indian mystic determined to raise an army of undead indians). I have no groove for cowboys; another evil rancher? Rob another bank? Yawn.
I prefer sci fi. If I run modern, I prefer modern over a military/black ops setting. However, even my modern games are pretty pulpy, with secret societies, aliens and lost magic inevitably turning up.
I have wanted to run a DOOM 3 sorta game since I played DOOM 3 and it scared the willies out of me a few times (if you play DOOM 3, play it IN THE DARK and TURN UP THE VOLUME. I promise it will make ya jump every now and then). Hell invades, and everything you were taught in Sunday school is true...what could be scarier than that?
lynn
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I have no groove for cowboys; another evil rancher? Rob another bank? Yawn.
This was kinda my thing. I have done a lot of research into the era, and I have a lot of source material at the house to work with.
The longest lasting one I was running was set in Missouri about 1862. There were not a lot of big pitched battles here, but the guerrilla activity was horrible. I have a book on the civil war in Missouri day by day. It makes an interesting guideline. Entire towns were depopulated and burned, and example nearby is the town of Ellington. It is not currently in the place it started in. A federal troop burned it for harboring guerrillas. There were entire counties in western Missouri that were emptied of anyone due to the support for guerrilla attacks into Kansas.
So mine were not so much evil banker/ bank robber things. More like common man caught up in the war. This also kept me from affecting history much with character actions since most of this stuff never really was heard about. Short of them offing Bloody Bill Anderson, or stopping Quantrell from raiding Lawrence there was little problem.
This also led into interesting adventures after the war.
The other campaign I did was taking a Japanese character and throwing him into the west. At the time there was a revolution in Japan, and the character was a samurai who had run rather then commit seppeku. This was pretty interesting as well.
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I also forgot a Shadowrun knock off usinf black ops and other books.
BTW, SM:P Psionics work very well also in RMSS/FRP and many be even RMX/C/2 as they are very different than spell casting.
MDC
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I'm actually a professional nag, so my tolerence level is pretty high.
Sent you your reply, interesting stuff.
Beyond Allen, how many people are playing RM/SM for modern (or relatively modern) settings?
I am personally planning on running a black ops game using the old Millenium's End background, leading into a World War Z game. ("What do you mean my .50 Barrett didn't kill him? WTF kind of armor does he got?")
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LOL! yeah, I've got plans similar... and when that 20mm cannon round hits, bounces and the bad guy stands up again... I think the pucker factor will be quite high. :laugh1:
I am personally planning on running a black ops game using the old Millenium's End background, leading into a World War Z game. ("What do you mean my .50 Barrett didn't kill him? WTF kind of armor does he got?")
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Never for anything espionage style modern but we did run Pulp Adventures a few times. I am, by far, the biggest pulp fan in our group, so it's hard to get anyone else interested. Didn't like using the regular spell lists or the modified fantasy classes (especially for spellcasters). I would've preferred magic to be represented by exotic talents like the radio Shadow's ability to "cloud men's minds" rather than just PP's and spell lists.
Never played a lot of modern day espionage. Played in a few Spycraft 2.0 in the last few years but before that you'd have to go back to Top Secret (the orginal, not the S.I. one).
jolt