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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMSS/FRP => Topic started by: Arioch on January 08, 2008, 08:44:59 AM
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In the near future my party will have to deal with a bunch of evil demon worshipping clerics/sorcerers. A certain number of their foes will have access to the infamous Absolution spell and, since they have no love for the party, they surely make use of it, if they can.
I don't care if one or more of them get zapped during the adventure, failing his/her RR and being knocked out by the spell (they know who they're going to fight and they have full time to prepare themselves).
The probelm is that they have no access to Lifegiving or similar effects (and they have no connection with any sort of church or religious organization who could do it for them), so after the adventure the only way to have "absoluted" comrades back in the party would be waiting X weeks until their souls come back.
This sounds a bit boring to me, and I'm thinking to introduce alternative ways that they could use to revive their friends. Something like a couple of mini-quests to keep them busy instead of having them sitting in a inn for a month or two, waiting for their friends to wake up.
For example they could use a very rare soul-restoring herb, which grows in a dangerous area. Finding the herb would be the quest, but this would involve only the "active" characters, while the "absoluted" ones will have to do nothing for the whole time.
Another solution could be some sort of "astral-travel", where the PCs use a ritual to go to the realm of the deads to rescue their friends... this would involve both living and temporary dead characters, so probably it's better...
Any other idea?
Thanks!
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What this calls for is a couple rings of astral anchoring which prevent absolution and maybe some that are more like rings of astral vengance in which their soul stays behind to torment and trouble the fool who dared sunder them.
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How about, if the effect is caused by evil channeling, you need to get them back onto holy ground which "breaks the spell."
Something akin to:
"Open up padre, we gotta lay my friend here on your alter to wake him up!"
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The text for the spell "Absolution" says that the soul may only be restored early through Lifegiving. it doesn't say that the Lifegiving has to be from a spell.
To me, this suggests a number of alternate possibilities. For example, there are the herbs listed on page 114 of the RMC Character Law (or you could make up herbs of your own that do this as well).
You could rule that taking a Lifekeeping herb reduces the duration to days or even hours instead of weeks, if it is taken within a certain time frame before, or even have it reduce the time frame afterwards as well.
You could transport the victims to a magical spring which is rumored to be able to bring back the dead (i.e. it will work as lifegiving so long as the body still lives or is undamaged - it can awaken characters from comas as well).
While they may not have any church affiliations, there is always the "generous donation" to get a church to help out. And if the PCs end up broke...... oopsey... more reason for them to go adventuring again.
Or perhaps they get aided in return for the party agreeing to be geased to complete a given task.
Oodles and oodles of ideas abound....
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So summoing a demon to animate the empty vessel is probably out of the question...
Are they taking on this evil cult pro bono? What if one of the prequel quests involves indirectly helping a competing temple that may offer aid for the final assault?
One thing we did once was allow early return via spell mastery/ritual of the absolution spell (had a channeler in the party) to put the soul back. However this did set up some long term precedents that we weren't too comfortable with so we discontinued it.
But the lifekeeping option seems more plausible. Absolution kicks the soul out, likekeeping keeps it around. Mechanically you could handle it similar to a dispel since you do have contrairy effects and lifekeeping time could be subtracted from absolved time perhaps to a minimum or at least some recovery dime as the character's soul just did some extra-planar bunjee jumping.
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If I'm not mistaken, your interp actually works via the cancel rule.
The caster can just cancel it at will, since it's not a permanent effect. . .hmm.
The note in SL does say that for channeling spells, there may be complications if the diety doesn't want the spell cancelled.
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But then if you kill the caster the spell might end.
It depends on if absolution kicks out the soul who then takes a while to get back or if it is actually keeping the soul out as in a continual effect. If the spell description states that only lifegiving can bring back the soul early it seems kind of like it poisons the body preventing sour reunification so the spell would no longer be active but the effects would linger. Kind of like magical stunning where you can't dispel the stun rounds....or can you? Using lifekeeping to shorten the time isn't so much as cancelling the spell as overriding it.
The note in SL does say that for channeling spells, there may be complications if the diety doesn't want the spell cancelled.
Then whose god is bigger - the absolver or reunifier? Which brings up the sticky issue about channeling magic in general which is best to leave alone.
Thinking about this absolution, as in remission of sins, does seem an odd choice of name for a spell that rips the soul from your body.
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Oh, also, Cancel Channeling or Channelling shield of an appropriate level is an effective protective measure. Of course, the only 100% effective defense against the dangers of Absolution is Abstainence!
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Spells won't end when caster is killed, caster can choose to cancel.
The channeling issue comes up with the party capturing the priest. "Bring our friend back"
He tries, and fails. . . if his god isn't interested in letting the spell cancel. . .Where an essence or mentalism user could just cancel, the channeler can cancel unless the diety doesn't want the spell to cancel.
I dunno. I always read that spell as "You go where you would end up if you died right now."
So, depending on the world, and the afterlife set up. . .you go there, experience it for a given set of time, then pop back to your body. . .
Some evil folks might decide they don't want to go back to hell after a visit and change their ways.
The word "Absolution" is kind of odd though. . .even more so that Ordainers can "Ordain" which is the name for their absolution ability.
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I ment the spell Cancel Channelling which makes an incoming spell make an RR vs the caster's level or be cancelled. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of dynamite.
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He tries, and fails. . . if his god isn't interested in letting the spell cancel. . .Where an essence or mentalism user could just cancel, the channeler can cancel unless the diety doesn't want the spell to cancel.
lmao :D
I can see it now, the rule will read as every Munchkins dream come true. Chapter 4, under "The Nature of Clerical Magic".
"...all cleric spells resist at a level equal to their respective diety. Optionally, all resistance levels may be halved from attacks originating from the dieties diametrically oppossed force..."
:laugh3:
Every spell user would want to be a cleric.
lynn
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I think I may have been unclear. I refer to the notes in SL, RMC SL page 84, I think this is the same on the FRP side:
CANCELING A SPELL
The caster of a spell can, at any time, cancel that spell; the caster must be within the spell?s original range limit or within ?sensing? range of the spell?s current effects. The caster cannot cancel the actual physical or mental results of a spell (e.g., fire, wounds, created materials, etc.). Cancellation takes 1 round of concentration. Channeling spells may also require the permission or acquiescence of the caster?s deity to cancel the effect.)
So if a nasty magician or mentalist does something long lasting to a party member, you can try the "Take it off or we start cutting off your toes" routine. . . .with an evil cleric absolution. . . .even if the cleric agrees to try, it might not work, if their diety decides to not let them cancel the effect.
Not referring to an external cancel at all.
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As far as I am concerned, the deity has no say in it.
They way I view it is that the deity provides the power, the deity does NOT cast the spells. The spells are learned and cast by the character. It is the only way in which channeling can work properly (without a lot of hand-waving or trying to explain why a Cleric has to purchase/learn his spells) in RM.
As for a soul returning from an Absolution, that is up to the caster (canceling the spell or not), and the soul (which always gets the right to refuse lifegiving efforts). The deity is not part of the effort in any way.
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I think that's the reason for that all important "may" in the cancel rule quoted above. Never tie the GMs hands either way.
Souls always return from Absolution, there's not really a choice involved, unless you kill the body. (Dark absolution destroys the soul completely, nasty spell.)
I guess if you tried to lifegive the body to bring the soul back early, it would end up resolving normally, per what you said above. . .but at the end of the duration the soul snaps back into the body, unless the GM intervenes somehow.
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So summoing a demon to animate the empty vessel is probably out of the question...
Are they taking on this evil cult pro bono? What if one of the prequel quests involves indirectly helping a competing temple that may offer aid for the final assault?
Actually not ;) ...summoning a demon to do the trick could be an idea since one of the party members is a demonologist. But he's reluctant to use demons too much, because in my world close contact with demons bring corruption points. So even if they come up with a similar idea they'll probably discard it because of the corruption.
They are not taking on the cultists just because they're an evil cult, but because they're allied with their enemies and have something that the PCs want... knowing that these clerics are evil only makes the PCs feel justified a bit for killing them all. ::)
But the lifekeeping option seems more plausible. Absolution kicks the soul out, likekeeping keeps it around.
But lifekeeping clearly states that the soul must still be in the body for the spell to work. So they'll have to cast it on them before confronting the cult, as a sort of "Absolution shield"...
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The text for the spell "Absolution" says that the soul may only be restored early through Lifegiving. it doesn't say that the Lifegiving has to be from a spell.
To me, this suggests a number of alternate possibilities. For example, there are the herbs listed on page 114 of the RMC Character Law (or you could make up herbs of your own that do this as well).
Yes, I think I'll go for something like that: a magical herb or a special holy place, something that is not too hard to obtain, but neither too easy...
But all this talking about cancelling spells make me think that the solution is actually a lot easier! Absolution is a Force spell, and has a duration (1week/10 fail), so it could be simply dispelled (with a Dispel Channeling), or not? ;D
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In one game, the PC recoved a lost religious relic in the form of an urn with a balm inside. The balm was unending but only returned to the shrine from which it originated. The urn held all of the balm when lost and aided the players with a very deadly story, but was gone shortly. They eventually returned the urn and were treated as out casts for not returning it earlier, but they were alive. The Balms heal abilities was nothing but miraculous.
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yep, the "Easy" answer is to drop a dispell on it.
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But lifekeeping clearly states that the soul must still be in the body for the spell to work. So they'll have to cast it on them before confronting the cult, as a sort of "Absolution shield"...
That is an interesting variant on it. Pehaps a little research/spell mastery might be required but it does seem to be along the same lines as elemental shields and the like.
Would a dispel work? Is absolution considiered a continuous spell for its duration or is it boom - done with risidual effects? I would say not as we also don't allow dispelling of stun, and similar, spells that have durations dependant on resistance rolls.
This reminds me of an instance where a character had a soulstone (kingdom Amulets from Shadow World have a similar effect and act as soul keeping gems), had literally given part of his sould to an evil god (dark pact) and then had absolution cast upon him. We used opposing RR's to see who won (the god wasn't giving up his part no matter what) and the soulstone did nullifying the absolution but he was out for several rounds as his soul got sucked out, put into the stone then was put back from the stone. Perhaps something similar, but less powerful obviously, or cancel channeling items?
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stuns are "damage". . .which is considered a permenant effect. . .the stun itself wears off, but all damage is considered permenant, and can be fixed, but not cancelled. Same with side effects like if your wall of fire sets the building on fire, cancelling the wall of fire does not put the fire out.
OTOH a spell like "Confusion" or "Golden Slumbers" that puts you into an altered state for a given duration seem to fall under the cancel vs "F" spell effects rules.
Absolution has a duration, the details are very different, but the resolution is essentially the same as "Golden Slumbers". . .I cast, your soul is shoved off for a while, then returns.
Opinion: I'd say the "snap back" to the body represents the fact that the soul belongs in the body, it's anchored there and retains a connection. The Absolution pulls the soul out and sends it off, and prevents it from coming back. I'd rule as GM that a sucessful cancel channeling eliminates that block or prevention of the soul resuming it's normal state, so the soul pops back.
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I used this to great effect over 20 years ago, in one of the first RM campaigns I ran. A demon sorcerer hit the two of the group's members with this spell, leaving the warrior to nursemaid them for a month.
I made them wait the 30 days. I accelerated the time (didn't roleplay it day by day) naturally, and the fighter procured a wagon to keep them safe while they vegged out for a month. The fighter fed and watered them while they lay there with glassy eyes, and mucked out their straw beds every couple days. He didn't spend much time in the wagon himself, and by the end of the month, he did a bang-up job of RP'ing his crankiness. The mage character kept going on about how well-rested he felt, after he woke up. We spent maybe half an hour RP'ing the whole month of waiting, including a couple of sadistic checks by yours truly for random encounters, so it wasn't nearly as boring as it could have been.
It's one of those situations that the players still talk about, when I see those guys. The fighter never let the other two live it down, constantly reminding them how much they owed him for that month of tending. In hindsight, I'm extremely glad I let it go down the way it did, it was a lot of fun for everyone.
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But all this talking about cancelling spells make me think that the solution is actually a lot easier! Absolution is a Force spell, and has a duration (1week/10 fail), so it could be simply dispelled (with a Dispel Channeling), or not? ;D
I'd say no. The spell is cast and done. The effect lingers (missing soul) like the effect from a Shock Bolt (burns). It is like healing wounds -not- an ongoing effect.
In game-wise, the players could do a a) quest for a church to have the Lifegiving cast for them, b) search or quest for applicable herbs or c) wait.
My $0.02,
Old Man
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Besides, it would make one of the most frightening spell around just a minor trouble... "Your soul has been blown away ? Wait for a couple of second, I cast my first level spell and there it is..."
IMO, we should keep in mind that this spell, even the first version, is a terrifying one, a direct attack upon someone's life essence. So cures to it should be equally difficult to find.
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Still need to go through the whole RR vs RR schenanigan. . .and who gets cancel channeling as a 1st level spell?
My problem with the Absolution = injury explaination, which means the spell first permenantly injures you by tearing out your soul, then heals you later by restoring it at the end of the duration, is that if you chose to define it that way. . . .referring back to the rule above on cancels. . . .is that during the seperated soul and body duration, the evil cleric says "Fine, I cancel it". . . .and now you're dead. . .or at least, the soul will not be coming back, since the second half effect hasn't gone off. . . .I prefer to think of the soul removal as the only effect, that since you're not dead, your soul naturally wants to return to the body, so as soon as the effect wears off you snap back. . .
The fact that it's "Soul moved out to wherever"-"duration"-"Soul returns". . . .means that your empty vessel body is laying there with a detectable, ongoing channeling effect on it. . .when the effect expires, your soul returns.
GM can make the call that a cancel channeling won't work, and require one of the curse removing spells, or not allow that either and require lifegiving, but I don't see any rules reason why cancel channeling wouldn't work.
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My point exactly. It has more to do with the 'feeling' of this powerful spell than any game mechanics. IMHO, that's not right... But it's only humble opinion.
BTW, you're right, Cancel Channeling arrives at 2nd level on the Spell Defense open channeling list or 3rd level in Dispelling Ways (closed essence). But that doesn't change my "wrongness" feeling.
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May be a version issue, looking at my RMC Spell Law.
No cancel or dispell channeling on Spell defense
The "Cancel Channeling" on Dispelling ways 4th level has to be cast on self, before a channeling spell is cast on you, forcing the channeling spell to get through a LV vs LV rr to get through, then you make your RR. (It would work, but only to prevent an absolution, no way to apply it to an already cast one.)
Dispel Channeling sphere I at 7th level would counter a channeling spell it ran into, but that spell gets a +30 RR. good luck on the RR with absolution getting a +30 mod to the roll.
same with 16th level Dispel chan sphere.
30th or 50th level dispells on this list would work.
I got no problem with the logic of "takes at least a 7th level spell to try breaking it, and still requires a RR biased +30, needs a 30th level spell to get a normal, unbiased RR to dispell it." based on core rules. . .if the GM wants to jack this spell up to an even more powerful level I also have no problem with that, but it's not exactly a weak spell as is.
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Base Absolution spell is 14th level....
A 14th level spell having to beat the "Dispel" of a 7th level spell needs to roll a base of 33 or higher (before any BAR adjustments). Given that the defending spell gets +30, that means the Absolution needs a 3 or higher.
If we take into account that targets of an Absolution have a -20 modifier to their RRs, I would, personally, rule that an Absolution gains an additional +20 to its rolls to avoid being dispelled (for a total of a +50 adjustment).
In short, if a spell is harder to resist than normal, then it is going to be harder to dispel than normal as well.
Taking all of this into account, I would definitely say that a "Dispel Channeling" would work against an Absolution... ;D
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I put all that math in, then edited it out when I noticed all those spells refer back to the first one, which gives an exception to the usual spell level vs spell level "spell conflict" logic, by saying caster level vs caster level.
Odds still don't look too hot, even if it's 14th level priest vs 14th level priest. (Usually my villain high priest casting absolution is a party enemy, so generally will be higher level than the party anyhoo.)
Forgot about the -20, if the "RR mods also equal dispel mods" was made official, that would make the 14ts vs 14th level caster odds exactly 0 before you get to the 30th level dispel. Go for an open ended?
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An error from me. I haven't palyed RM for some times and have been mislead by the 'cancel' term. Of course, to cancel a active spell after it has bben cast, it requires a Dispel Channeling and not a mere Cancel Channeling, a more potent spell, harder to learn and to cast. That answers my problem with a low level spell countering (or having a chance to) a high level one.
Somehow, I still don't like the dispelling answer to an absolution. Once again, I understand that it's OK with game mechanics but still doesn't feel right. Call it a personnal bias.
May be my problem is with the Absolution spell which has a duration. All that thread do not apply to Pure or Dark Absolution. Having such a powerful effect limited in time is perhaps what disturbs me. Cancelling a Pure Absolution will require a Lifegiving effect if I understand right. Would a Dispel Channeling spell cancel such a permanent effect or not ?
As to Dark Absolution, it seems hopelessly without any solution. But that's how it should be IMO.
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If I'm not mistaken, the pure severs the body from the soul permenantly, so there's no lingering effect to dispell. (i.e. it kills you, at least in terms of the body has no soul now.)
Dark Absolution destroys the soul, so nothing fixes that short of GM intervention. (There's no spell I can think of at least. perhaps one of the "over 50th level" spells from a companion?)
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First: Thank you all guys for your reply and suggestions!
Then, I'm getting a bit confused about dispelling...
My players have access to two ways of dispelling a spell:
- An Elementalist with Dispelling Ways, which has a "Dispel Channeling" at level 6 (RMFRP version of Spell Law)
- A Wizard, with "Dispel Magic" at level 3 of "Spell Bane"
What I don't understand is: why the Elementalist would have to use "Dispel Channeling Sphere", instead of
simply targetting the Absolution with "Dispel Channeling", which gives a huge +30 bonus to the other spell RR? The only reason that comes to my mind is that Absolution has been already cast, so it's not targettable, but it's still active (and thus subject to Dispel "Channeling Sphere"). Does it works this way? ???
Then, on my version of Spell Law I read that the Absolution would use his caster level, not its own level, to resist the dispelling effect. I guess this is just because I use a different edition of Spell Law...
If we take into account that targets of an Absolution have a -20 modifier to their RRs, I would, personally, rule that an Absolution gains an additional +20 to its rolls to avoid being dispelled (for a total of a +50 adjustment).
In short, if a spell is harder to resist than normal, then it is going to be harder to dispel than normal as well.
I agree on this, it seems perfectly right! :)
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If I'm not mistaken, the pure severs the body from the soul permenantly, so there's no lingering effect to dispell. (i.e. it kills you, at least in terms of the body has no soul now.)
Dark Absolution destroys the soul, so nothing fixes that short of GM intervention. (There's no spell I can think of at least. perhaps one of the "over 50th level" spells from a companion?)
Yes, I was talking only about the first Absolution, the one with a duration (I like to think that this spell rips the soul from the body and then prevents its return creating a sort of magical cage around it...).
The only way to cure an Absolution Pure is Lifegiving and for a Dark Absolution you can forget your character...
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Both Absolutions work in the same manner. Target is put into a coma, and the soul travels to the afterlife (or the Soul Storage Facility or whatever).
The only difference between the two is that one has a duration and the other is permanent.
Also, if you don't like the dispelling option, then don't allow it. That option is for those who are lenient, as the spell clearly states that the soul can only be returned via lifegiving.
To me, that says that canceling or dispelling the spell won't restore the soul. Herbs and potions and spells that do lifegiving can, but nothing else.
however, I also tend to be slightly lenient in such matters, so I would personally allow such.
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My problem with the Absolution = injury explaination, which means the spell first permenantly injures you by tearing out your soul, then heals you later by restoring it at the end of the duration, is that if you chose to define it that way. . . .referring back to the rule above on cancels. . . .is that during the seperated soul and body duration, the evil cleric says "Fine, I cancel it". . . .and now you're dead. . .or at least, the soul will not be coming back, since the second half effect hasn't gone off. . . .I prefer to think of the soul removal as the only effect, that since you're not dead, your soul naturally wants to return to the body, so as soon as the effect wears off you snap back. . .
Stun spell effects wear off and the character isn't really 'healed' of anything. There isn't any secondary effect to be cancelled resulting in death. Can you cancel stun spells?
Another way of looking at it is that the absolution spell 'poisons' the body for a while rather than putting in a cage, kicking out the soul and preventing its return. This would also explain why lifegiving herbs and such would work. Absolution pure corrupts the body permanently and dark absolution corrupts the body and the soul.
Thinking about this further having the spell kick out the soul and send it to the afterlife prematurely seems to be taking two deities into account - the one that granted the spell and the other that accepts the wayward soul. Just having the soul float around for a while out gets rid of the second issue.
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suspect the latter was left vague on purpose to fit gameworld logic. . .it says "to wherever souls go". . .perhaps they go to the pub?
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Perhaps they go to the Soul Storage Facility #9, which is run by Friend Computer.....
;D
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Or Soul Storage Area 51.
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Actually that did come up in game play. The character was absolved and perfectly fine having an ale with his god until he felt the tug of lifegiving and his god said 'sorry but you've gotta go'.
But back to the question of 'where souls go' is that if they do not go to the Elysium Fields or wherever then the spell is much more limited in scope.
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Both Absolutions work in the same manner. Target is put into a coma, and the soul travels to the afterlife (or the Soul Storage Facility or whatever).
The only difference between the two is that one has a duration and the other is permanent.
I won't say that Razyr. That difference seems more profound to me. Let's say the soul is connected to the body via a 'silver rope', the Absolution tear the soul out of its vessel but doesn't damage the 'rope' beyond a mere straining.
OTOH, Pure Absolution severs the rope. The two spells don't seem to work the same way, unless you consider that Pure absolution is simply a mightier version of Absolution giving the soul a stronger shove, strong enough to cur the rope ?
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Dark absolution goes a step further, soul is destroyed. . .no afterlife at all, it's gone, done, destroyed, consumed, beyond reclaimation.
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If I'm not mistaken, the pure severs the body from the soul permenantly, so there's no lingering effect to dispell. (i.e. it kills you, at least in terms of the body has no soul now.)
Dark Absolution destroys the soul, so nothing fixes that short of GM intervention. (There's no spell I can think of at least. perhaps one of the "over 50th level" spells from a companion?)
No spell but I could see, perhaps, a version of the 75th level New Body called New Soul. Grab a ton of spirit stuff, put in blender, hit "frappe" and put in the soulless body... Not the same person tho...
Ciao,
Old Man
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My problem with the Absolution = injury explaination, which means the spell first permenantly injures you by tearing out your soul, then heals you later by restoring it at the end of the duration, is that if you chose to define it that way. . . .referring back to the rule above on cancels. . . .is that during the seperated soul and body duration, the evil cleric says "Fine, I cancel it". . . .and now you're dead. . .or at least, the soul will not be coming back, since the second half effect hasn't gone off. . . .I prefer to think of the soul removal as the only effect, that since you're not dead, your soul naturally wants to return to the body, so as soon as the effect wears off you snap back. . .
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I wouldn't allow the caster to cancel it either... Can't cancel the fireball once it detonates. I am using that sort of logic.
Ciao,
Old Man
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I won't say that Razyr. That difference seems more profound to me. Let's say the soul is connected to the body via a 'silver rope', the Absolution tear the soul out of its vessel but doesn't damage the 'rope' beyond a mere straining.
OTOH, Pure Absolution severs the rope. The two spells don't seem to work the same way, unless you consider that Pure absolution is simply a mightier version of Absolution giving the soul a stronger shove, strong enough to cur the rope ?
The silver cord? That is a setting/cosmology issue, not a system/rules issue. My comments on the differences between the 2 versions of Absolution (not referring to Dark Absolution) were system/rules oriented.
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Hmm Sustain Body (Closed Essence ) from Spell Users have a 20th level spell called Maintain Soul. Which for 10minutes/level makes the spellcaster immune to "Absolution or similar spells which attempt to seperate the casters soul from the body."
Quite usefull here, though I dont know the level of the party :)
You might think of making a lesser version, that gives a bonus to resistance rolls instead and then make a potion/rune out of it.
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Actually that did come up in game play. The character was absolved and perfectly fine having an ale with his god until he felt the tug of lifegiving and his god said 'sorry but you've gotta go'.
But back to the question of 'where souls go' is that if they do not go to the Elysium Fields or wherever then the spell is much more limited in scope.
This is also very setting specific... the spell states that the character's soul is sent to whatever is planned for the afterlife. It doesn't say nothing about his awareness, if in a setting mind and soul are two separate things then the problem of "where souls go" it's more limited IMHO.
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This sounds like a GM dependent call.
I would rule it like
"The spell pulls your soul out, and places it in the realm of death belonging to the caster. It will take your soul 1 week/10 fail to find its way back"
i.e dispelling would do nothing at all.
As a GM I would also allow spritual care to lure the spirit back faster. Things like burning the targets favourite food/drink, having virgins sing around him... Stuff like that. Depending on his culture/religion of cause.
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If the pc is absolved by a dark gods power then why would'nt the soul go into captivity in a version or the dark gods domain. That's what keeps the soul away that long. they are imprisioned.
This alows a interesting "medaphore" session as the pc's fight and try to escape this new hell.(where they cant die beacuse they are already dead. But pain on the other hand......)
Now , if only all the pc's, or all but 1, accidentily got absolved then the party would be together.....
Isint it convienent that the death of the final devote sets off a dark pack/contingency of retribution on behalf of the dark god affecting all within the temple for destroying his cult as a final act. This would be a ritualized spell set up long ago with the formation of the cult of course and of enough lvl to be aproprate.
just an idea
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The silver cord? That is a setting/cosmology issue, not a system/rules issue. My comments on the differences between the 2 versions of Absolution (not referring to Dark Absolution) were system/rules oriented.
Sure Razyr, it's very setting oriented. IMO any question dealing with such a thing as soul as to be so... It's one of the point where the rules must be set according to the setting. One of the real good thing you keep on advising. ;)
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Isint it convienent that the death of the final devote sets off a dark pack/contingency of retribution on behalf of the dark god affecting all within the temple for destroying his cult as a final act. This would be a ritualized spell set up long ago with the formation of the cult of course and of enough lvl to be aproprate.
A very nasty idea... perhaps it could be keyed to an item of some sort, when the item is activated it releases a wave of Unholy energy that absolve everything in a given readius... :evil1:
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Either way you can run all the party (or all but the one caring for the bodies) in a little mini-hell campaign. The better they do the faster they return. 8)
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I find trips to hell either brief, deadly, or well prepared for in RM. . .. .(or both brief and deadly.)
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even when well prepared they can be brief and deadly ;)
-poor Tarsil I remember him well...
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Ah...
But their not there in "BODY" at all...
Just their imortal soul 8)
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Either way, not a really a picnic or a walk in the park.
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LM- casting Lifekeeping was brought up to "help" reist Absoulition but as TomOBedlam pointed out in another thread it looks like maybe it wont take unless the target is "dead" so no benifit for a living character.
Any Ruling anywhere on casting Lifekeeping on the living that you know of? :-\
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There's a spell that will keep you in suspended animation if you're killed. . .my brain is saying paladin list from roco1.
Self Keeping, 17th level spell.
I dunno if that would affect either an absolution or Dark Absolution. . .mostly seems intended to prevent normal soul departure due to death, the only advantage over lifekeeping is that it's cast pre-emptively.
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So the regular Lifekeeping can't be cast pre-emptivily?
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So the regular Lifekeeping can't be cast pre-emptivily?
That is interesting. If you allow lifekeeping as a pre-emptive defense against absolution, it would then also work for normal soul departure due to death due to damage. For example why not cast is before heading into combat for for the higher level ones once a week or month even?
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Self keeping is a roco1 spell, so it's not canon, but I don't read lifekeeping as being allowed to be used pre-emptively even without that contrast.
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There is a self keeping spell on Self Healing, open mentalism...and on monk base...IIRC.
So many books...brain getting fuzzy with age...and lack of playing :'(
lynn
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Same here. . .
OK, in that light, I'd say "Definitely doesn't work pre-emptively."
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Lifekeeping - [Caster can prevent the soul of a "dead" body from leaving, thus preventing an actual death and enabling the fallen beeing to be restored via simple bodily repairs]
In my book it cant get much clearer than that.
The spell stops the soul from saying "Ah, bother, this one is dead. Well, I'm outta here". i.e stops it from doing what it normally does when a body dies. The soul is convinced to hang on a bit longer.
Absolution is a spell that ripps the soul from the living body. It does not ask what the soul wants, it ripps it, kicking and screaming, from the body. The two spells are not related.
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I concur. . .self keeping won't work against absolution either.
we tangented a bit. . .I just don't think Lifekeeping will work without a dead body to target (i.e. it cannot be used pre-emptively like "Self Keeping" can.)
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Sounds right looking at it again.
So, Lifekeeping is only useful AFTER the bad thing has happened. No help otherwise.
And Self Keeping is SELF so if you can still cast it you must have survived the Absoultion already.
Even Contingency would be too late beacuse the soul is already removed.
Ok, little clairafications always help smouth out the game. ;D
Thanks
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You could contingency a Lifegiving to go off if your soul departs. . . .would pop for an absolution. . .would be wasted if you have an arrow through your chest. . .and wouldn't do anything for a dark absolution.
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There is a self keeping spell on Self Healing, open mentalism...and on monk base...IIRC.
So many books...brain getting fuzzy with age...and lack of playing :'(
lynn
Aye,
Open Mentalism, Self Healing, lvl 15 - Self Keeping S*
Monk Base, Body Reins, lvl 20 - Self Keeping S*
Given Lifekeeping says "dead body" and "within 2 minutes of 'death'" I'd rule no pre-emptive casting.
Ciao,
Old Man
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LM- I think your off on the contingency working for regular Absoulition.
With both Absoulition and Dark absoulition the soul is removed instantaly. Lifekeeping seems to only be useful if
A- the body is "dead"
B- the soul had not "moved on" ie. still in body.
Both forms of Absoulition prevent requirement B. :)
Sound right?
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You could contingency a Lifegiving to go off if your soul departs. . . .would pop for an absolution. . .would be wasted if you have an arrow through your chest. . .and wouldn't do anything for a dark absolution.
The devil is in the detail. . .I don't think a lifekeeping will work either, but if you could get a lifeGIVING to go off any time you experience soul departure, that would turn an absolution into a 1 round knockdown. . .but as I said, it'd be useless for physical damage or dark absolution.
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Very specific contingency. Would work for Arioch's scenario as preperation (if they can find it) for attacking the cult ;D