Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMSS/FRP => Topic started by: Arioch on August 06, 2007, 09:03:06 PM
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As a GM, do you let monks in the PCs' party find magical "weapons" like, for example, +10 Gloves of Martial Arts or something similar? Or do they have to use weapon katas or develop a weapon if they want to be prepared in the case they encounter a "may only be hit by magical weapons" creature?
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In my game the creatures that need to be hit with magical weaon are few and far between. But if I did have a monk I would limit them to a magic weapon. No gloves that allow you to do magical MA attacks. But you would also have to rule on bladerunes and tatous, if they could enchant a fist ect.
MDC
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I never give out gloves or the like that are magic, or even superior. If a monk wants a magic weapon, he will need a kata, or train a weapon like everyone else.
The non magical attack of martial arts IMO is one of its inherient weaknesses. OTOH, with Chi powers like Elemental Fist, even a monk CAN generate a magical, unarmed attack.
lynn
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For our campaign, we created a restricted Special Attacks Chi Powers skill called Power Fist. The description reads:
Power Fist enables the martial artist to focus his inner energies into his unarmed attacks so as to charge them with temporary arcane potential analogous to the magical power of enchanted weapons. His next strike is treated as a +0 magical attack. In case of multiple attacks, only one attack is affected. Power Fist requires a 20% preparation action. {Em}
The skill is not as powerful as it may seem, yet it still allows monks and the like to damage creatures that can only be hit with magical weapons. I consider the skill a pretty fair one, particularly since it's my Changramai monk who's using it, and it kinda makes sense that Chi Powers would include something like this.
And you avoid giving monks enchanted items, if that's your thing. ;D
- Timo -
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The non magical attack of martial arts IMO is one of its inherient weaknesses.
This is also what I think, too. :) But recently I was discussing this topic with another GM, who was more for the "magical gloves" solution...
For our campaign, we created a restricted Special Attacks Chi Powers skill called Power Fist. The description reads:
Power Fist enables the martial artist to focus his inner energies into his unarmed attacks so as to charge them with temporary arcane potential analogous to the magical power of enchanted weapons. His next strike is treated as a +0 magical attack. In case of multiple attacks, only one attack is affected. Power Fist requires a 20% preparation action. {Em}
Great! I'll add it to our list of Chi powers ;)
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I'm not so experienced with RM Monks and the like
(don't know if there need to be some inherit weakness to them).
But in this case I made a decision long ago inspired by a very old nordic/Viking (?) tale -
the tale of the Wiederganger (wieder = again, ganger = walker ::)).
After his natural death a Viking king came back and attack people.
He couldn't be stopped because normal weapons didn't "bite". So his son goes into
hand to hand combat and break the neck of his father.
The son believes in that moment that the father cursed him, but the father blessed him.
The king didn't want to die in his bed, he want to die in a battle, so he returned.
No normal weapon could hurt him, but bare hands could do the trick.
So I decided to let bare hands hurt any creature.
Imagine the fighter throw away his battleaxe to go hand to hand with the vampire ;D
BTW in our game won't be any monks in the near future ...
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My players usually find magical things that fit the situation and not the group :) if they can use them, well good for them. If not, they'll have to trade it, sell it or learn how to use it.
If Monks want to do magical attacks, he can use a weapon. Either as a Kata or as a Weapon Bugei (From companion 4)
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+10 Gloves of Martial Arts
They really exist, not all gloves are equally good to strike (boxing punch, american punch, cestus...), and then magical gloves are obvious.
But as you can deduce, this is not possible for sweeps. For sweeps bonus, you need special clothes accesories, for example some hooks, but as the damage is made by the enviroment, usually the floor is not magical. 8)
And then, of course, you can use too the weapon katas and then you have all the weapon combat advantages, but remember with a -20 OB :-\
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IMO +10 gloves do not say that they are magical, they to me that they increase your chance to hit by 10.
IMO you need to say hit as magic weapon ability.
MDC
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IMO as well. +10 Gloves of Martial Arts give you a +10 skill bonus to your OB. They do not make your attacks magical as such. Or this is how we've always interpreted them at least.
- Timo -
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IMO as well. +10 Gloves of Martial Arts give you a +10 skill bonus to your OB. They do not make your attacks magical as such. Or this is how we've always interpreted them at least.
- Timo -
Hmm does that mean that a +10 mace gives you a +10 bonus to your Mace skill, but doesn't make the mace attack count as magical?
IMO + 10 Gloves of Martial Arts will make the attacks count as magical since you actually use that item to do the damage and it is designed for.
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For sweeps bonus, you need special clothes accesories, for example some hooks, but as the damage is made by the enviroment, usually the floor is not magical.
This has always bothered me from my AD&D days. This implies that a magic only creature could jump off a cliff and be undamaged as the ground would not be considered magical. Likewise if you drop a 20 ton rock on such a creature it would not be squished.
I will agree that the sweeps example is a bit different but it could easily be explained via the 'magical aura' (a catch all theory) of the item much like a circlet protecting as a full helm or negating head crits.
IMO as well. +10 Gloves of Martial Arts give you a +10 skill bonus to your OB. They do not make your attacks magical as such. Or this is how we've always interpreted them at least.
- Timo -
Along the lines with Balhirath, the gloves in question (like weapons) could either be +10 quality or matierial bonus without being magical or could indeed be magical.
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Many supernatural creatures are immune to the natural enviroment, and can be slammed through walls, thrown off cliffs, cast into the deep ocean, all with little more than results that inconvienance the foe. This is a staple of comics and movies. Fire is often the sole exception, being able to hurt almost anything, with the exception of ethereal type monsters, such as ghost.
However, few creatures in RM require magic to damage. Even the mightiest dragon can be killed by a mundane spear. In comics, Superman has only one weakness besides kryptonite; magic. Magic is assumed to be a universal energy that can affect just about anyone.
Sweeps will smash a skeleton and good, but are absolutely worthless against a Fog Beast or Demonic Protoplasm. Even creatures that could be hurt, such as Gorgonar Demons, are best not grappled because of their ability to immolate. Now, knocking such a fire spirit into a lake may result in damage, but these situations are best dealt with on a case by case situation.
lynn
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Hmm does that mean that a +10 mace gives you a +10 bonus to your Mace skill, but doesn't make the mace attack count as magical?
IMO + 10 Gloves of Martial Arts will make the attacks count as magical since you actually use that item to do the damage and it is designed for.
You certainly make a valid point there. Still, a glove is not a weapon, or at least not a weapon the way a mace is. You could argue the special material angle, as mocking bird does, but you'd still be left with, well, a glove. Upgrade that to a gauntlet, for example, and we're getting somewhere. But we're still left with a hand-worn apparel. Martial arts attacks include much more than just one's fists. Depending on the style, your whole body may well be the weapon: feet, knees, fists, elbows, shoulders, head, and all. How does the magical or material enhancement of a pair of gloves cover all these? Or is the bonus perhaps a weighted percentage of sorts? For example, the gloves are really +40 by themselves, but because it's just the fists, their effect averages out as +10? At least with a mace it's really just the mace (rule-wise anyways).
Of course, we are talking about magic so you can probably rationalize this satisfactorily one way or another. To me, however, the magical weapon angle is just not, well, intuitively right. (Make a convincing enough an argument and that may change. Maybe the gloves cast a funky magico-offensive skin-tight force field around your entire body that ...)
- Timo -
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You could argue the special material angle, as mocking bird does, but you'd still be left with, well, a glove. Upgrade that to a gauntlet, for example, and we're getting somewhere. But we're still left with a hand-worn apparel.
.....
Of course, we are talking about magic so you can probably rationalize this satisfactorily one way or another. To me, however, the magical weapon angle is just not, well, intuitively right. (Make a convincing enough an argument and that may change. Maybe the gloves cast a funky magico-offensive skin-tight force field around your entire body that ...)
- Timo -
You can have a dagger that can use the 2-H sword chart, why not magical gloves that can use the magical crit chart? A stick is not a weapon but it could be enchanted to use the quarterstaff chart.
For the strikes vs. what you are striking with argument, following that rationale it would be impossible to create gloves (or any apparel short of a jumpsuit) that would affect any MA skill since such mods could only apply to the hands - like boxing. Likewise it would be impossible to enchant a belt to increase wrestling skill. Or even increase a strength mod via an earring - unless you were picking up something up with your ears. I therefore have to default to the magical aura model - similar to your 'funky magico-offensive skin-tight force field' which sounds much cooler. This can also be applied to armor enchantments in that you are enchanting the entire suit rather than each individual piece. If not, enchantments will have to be limited wrt only being able to be effective on what is directly being used.
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It's not very often we get a player with a monk type character that doesn't use some kind of weapon kata. However, I would tailor my 'loot' slightly for someone that wanted to do so. After all, we play for fun and recreation and it IS generally a 'fantasy' setting... so while it's somewhat far-fetched I see nothing wrong with coming up with some kind of option for a purely hand-to-hand based character to have some kind of ability to fight creatures requiring magical attacks. Although I have to admit it would most likely be quite a ways into the campaign before such a need arose.
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I agree that the "hit only by magical weapons" is a vague definition and that it would be better if each monster had a description of what can exactly harm it... For example it's easy to accept that incorporeal monster are unharmed by all physical attacks (including things like great falls or being smashed by big rocks), but for other monsters (like vampires or werewolves) is more difficult to accept. I usually have them regenerating damage from non magical source very quickly, so that a huge amount of damage (as throwing them off a cliff) can knock them out for a couple of rounds, but then they rise again completely regenerated.
For the magical glove: I agree that by the rules you could create a glove that let you strike bare-handed like a magical weapon, but I don't really like the concept, seem too videogame-like to me... :-\
Maybe something like a magical tatto would be better.
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Maybe something like a magical tatto would be better.
Tattoos are wicked cool. A magical martial arts tattoo I could work with. Maybe something that artfully twines or coils around your entire body. Something that makes your body a magical weapon in effect. Cool, dude.
Existing spell lists probably do not allow for this kind of stuff ... or do they?
I seem to recall a series of fantasy novels by the default Dragonlance writers Hickman and Weiss that has a main character whose magic is based entirely on runes tattooed over his entire body. Not sure if this also extendes to his martial skills. Anyways, fantasy literature (and comics and computer games) are probably full of variations of the tattoo warrior.
- Timo -
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There's a whole list that deal with magical tatoos. I think that they originally was in Comp 5, but they certainly are in Alchemist Comp.
I have used them with good effect, but they do take a long time to make :)
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For magical tatoos, I often look at legend of the five rings: drangon clan.
I think the point I was trying to make was that you have to say wether a golve is just +10 to OB or able to hit magical creatures or both.
MDC
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As mentioned before, Chi skills can allow a monk to hit creatures that need "magic" to hit. This has many advantages for the monk, such as you can't take away his skill, he always has it with him and greater flexibility all around.
Meanwhile certain disadds are maintained, such as our monk still suffering ill effects from touching undead, GM control of access to the skill and even skill limitations (prep time, how long skill is in effect before new prep and skill check, even the type of creture that can be effected).
Enchanted gloves or the like could add an OB bonus, and a generous GM could declare the monk now strikes as magic, or even mithrel, holy or slaying. Another choice would be for the monk to still strike as normal but be protected from undead drain, or even applying any bonus from such gloves to chi skill(s).
RM is remarkably flexible, and options to suit all games and their GM's shouldn't be to hard to come up with.
lynn
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I still have a rationale problem with the gloves. Gloves should really only affect the fists, yet martial arts potentially use the entire body. Still, whatever rubs you the right way.
- Timo -
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If it's only for the bonus to your OB I don't see any problem: a pair of magical gloves (or even just a single magical glove) may increase your offensive skills because they guide your attacks or magically instill martial arts knowledge in your mind (BTW this reminds me an anime where one of the main characters received a magical bruce lee style kung-fu suit which made him appear stronger... could be a nice idea for a cursed item ;D).
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As mentioned before, Chi skills can allow a monk to hit creatures that need "magic" to hit. This has many advantages for the monk, such as you can't take away his skill, he always has it with him and greater flexibility all around.
Meanwhile certain disadds are maintained, such as our monk still suffering ill effects from touching undead, GM control of access to the skill and even skill limitations (prep time, how long skill is in effect before new prep and skill check, even the type of creture that can be effected).
Maybe it could also be ruled that spells like "Body Weaponry" allow you to hit "magic only" creatures (still keeping all the disvantages mentioned by you), but I'm not sure if ti would be a good idea. :-\
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If it's only for the bonus to your OB I don't see any problem: a pair of magical gloves (or even just a single magical glove) may increase your offensive skills because they guide your attacks or magically instill martial arts knowledge in your mind
Agreed. A magical interface to your brain and nervous system. This I can work with. :)
- Timo -
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hmmm I have to say that IMO anything that gives a bonus to OB (As opposed to MM) is able to hit creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. :)
However I also think that it's one of the things that each GM or Group have to deside for themselves :)
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hmmm I have to say that IMO anything that gives a bonus to OB (As opposed to MM) is able to hit creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. :)
By the rules there are weapons that gives bonus to OB and are not magical. Just look at the TP, they're full of +X non-magical weapons.
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Wow, a magical interface with the brain and nervous system?!!! This is a major redefinition of how magic weapons work, and I must say, unless the item is intelligent, I don't like it.
lynn
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Wow, a magical interface with the brain and nervous system?!!! This is a major redefinition of how magic weapons work, and I must say, unless the item is intelligent, I don't like it.
You might be right. But how do magic weapons and skill-enhancing items officially work in RM?
- Timo -
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Well, it is an item that provides a bonus to the PC's skill, so I always imagined superior and magic swords as being lighter, stronger, more flexible with a great edge (for superior swords) or a near unbreakable edge (for magic swords, i.e. never dull), while blunt weapons are harder and lighter, yet having the (magically provided) property of hitting as if they had more mass.
A magic sword is as superior in craft as modern composites are to the steel the Titanic was built from. Being almost unbreakable, their ability to penetrate armor would be far superior to mundane weapons, something the bonus simulates, yet fails to express superiority over mundane/superior weapons with the same bonus, i.e. two +10 swords, one magical, one superior, offer the same increased chance to score a better hit in melee. Perhaps the answer is to remove bonuses from superior gear, or assign magic weapons armor slaying ability.
lynn
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NAH ... A "superior" craftsman can create a +10 weapon in the ways you have described above; an alchemist can use magic to approximate the same thing. The important this is that being magic allows the weapon to impinge upon beings that are not entirely components of the material plane, and thus cannot be hurt by mere physical attacks.
A magic sword that does additional crits (ice/fire/whatever) does this by engulfing the weapon with the elemental force (generally without damaging the weapon).
A magic sword that is "just" a bonus to attack is something that si only marginally better than the physical analogue (reference your alchemist spells ... to create a +15 sword requires that the component materials "naturally" be +10 ... this does not even count in the alchemist's "natural" craftsmanship) ... but because the magical enhancement enables the weapon to be present/affect the ethereal realm, it can attack creatures that are immune to normal weapons.
Note that there are VERY few creatures in RM that have this restriction ... you are all trying to port in D&D's silliness !
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Wow, a magical interface with the brain and nervous system?!!! This is a major redefinition of how magic weapons work, and I must say, unless the item is intelligent, I don't like it.
lynn
I agree that might be stretching it for magic weapons. However how exactly does an item increase skills in which the item itself is not directly being used? For example a helm that adds to SCSM or a ring that adds to duping.
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I agree that might be stretching it for magic weapons. However how exactly does an item increase skills in which the item itself is not directly being used? For example a helm that adds to SCSM or a ring that adds to duping.
Precisely. If an item increases your skill, how can it not somehow affect your cognitive functions (and possibly nervous system)?
And as to magic weapons ... Where precisely in the RMSS or RMFRP core rules set is it stated how magic actually works in weapons?
- Timo -
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And as to magic weapons ... Where precisely in the RMSS or RMFRP core rules set is it stated how magic actually works in weapons?
That is a setting question in my book.
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The bonus has nothing to do with the nervous system. It is magic! The person the PC is talking to see's the PC in a slightly better way, better looking, better posture, better cloths...whatever. You could even imagine one of the typical movie moments, when the PC rides through and the other guards all jump up, asking who was that he allowed through, and the duped NPC says that was someone important, mind your business.
ITS MAGIC ;) No techno reason is required. If the PC was under a scanner when using his magic ring, the scanner reader might reply all he detected was 50 metric tons of banana's when the knight and the guard were talking, assumed it was a glitch.
lynn
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hmmm I have to say that IMO anything that gives a bonus to OB (As opposed to MM) is able to hit creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. :)
By the rules there are weapons that gives bonus to OB and are not magical. Just look at the TP, they're full of +X non-magical weapons.
As we were talking magical weapon, i took for granted that the bonus we were talking about was a MAGICAL bonus. Let me try again:
hmmm I have to say that IMO anything that gives a Magical bonus to OB (As opposed to MM) is able to hit creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. :)
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The bonus has nothing to do with the nervous system. It is magic! The person the PC is talking to see's the PC in a slightly better way, better looking, better posture, better cloths...whatever. You could even imagine one of the typical movie moments, when the PC rides through and the other guards all jump up, asking who was that he allowed through, and the duped NPC says that was someone important, mind your business.
ITS MAGIC ;) No techno reason is required. If the PC was under a scanner when using his magic ring, the scanner reader might reply all he detected was 50 metric tons of banana's when the knight and the guard were talking, assumed it was a glitch.
lynn
I agree with you, mine were only suggestions. You don't really have to explain how it works, it's magic after all. But you can try to describe the effects of the items to the players and tell them how their characters "feel" that the item work. Usually I say to my players things like "as you put on the ring you begin to understand what the merchant says, as if you suddenly remembered a long forgotten language." or "you swing the sword and the edge almost seems to rush itself into your enemy, as if driven by a misterious force..."
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ITS MAGIC ;) No techno reason is required.
See, for me, that is not a techno reason. :)
It's just, well, logic. Even magic has to be logical somehow. Arbitrariness is the enemy of realism and believability. And yes, magic can be realistic and believable in a fantasy world context. Heck, it ought to be.
- Timo -
PS. I know this will totally surprise you, but my fellow players often tell me that I over-rationalize things. Especially magic.
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Usually I say to my players things like "as you put on the ring you begin to understand what the merchant says, as if you suddenly remembered a long forgotten language." or "you swing the sword and the edge almost seems to rush itself into your enemy, as if driven by a misterious force..."
See, now THAT is cool. A bit of wonder goes a long way.
lynn
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Logic need not take anything away from wonder. Obviously you present things in a certain way to the players, the way their characters experience them. They feel wonder. However, there's nothing stopping you from having solid logic behind all the magical wonder. When magic is consistent, when it at least seems to follow some sort of rules, even if these are hidden under layers upon layers of ignorant awe, then the world the characters inhabit is that much more believable. Real. There's nothing quite like real-seeming fantasy.
The players need not know how magic works. But the GM should.
- Timo -
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It's just, well, logic. Even magic has to be logical somehow. Arbitrariness is the enemy of realism and believability. And yes, magic can be realistic and believable in a fantasy world context. Heck, it ought to be.
- Timo -
PS. I know this will totally surprise you, but my fellow players often tell me that I over-rationalize things. Especially magic.
I have to confess that I think the same way. :)
However that need to be logical about it, does not extend to my players, whom I like to surprise and delight with the wonders of magic.
It's just when I'm planning the scenario or background, I like to understand WHY things are the way they are.
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Ohh And there's a certain satisfaction when players ask (After the game) "Ehh how did they/it do that? Thats not according to the rules."
And I can say: "If I tell you I would have to kill you, but take my word on it: It IS according to the rules!" :)
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I like to understand WHY things are the way they are
Amen.
Plus in the long run, players will appreciate your work, because while they may be in the dark, you're not, and this shows in the game world experience they're getting.
- Timo -
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Well, I agree with what you are saying, and once it was my own creedo, but you have to be very careful when walking this "everything has to be explainable" nonsense.
Take a simple lvl 2 shield spell. I have seen a GM explain the invisible shield as an intense magnetic barrier that deflected attacks to an Android with a multiscaner. Sitting at that table, i winced inside, and sure enough, the Android started whipping non ferrous objects at the wizzard. Now the GM was stuck with his definition. Me, I learned to say the scanner picks up a large basket fruit.
Of course, I run and play in games that mix magic and tech freely, so these issues become important. Only so much needs to be actually explainable about something as inexplicable as magic, a force by definition that is impossible to exist, because nothing ignores the laws of nature.
lynn
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Take a simple lvl 2 shield spell. I have seen a GM explain the invisible shield as an intense magnetic barrier that deflected attacks to an Android with a multiscaner. Sitting at that table, i winced inside, and sure enough, the Android started whipping non ferrous objects at the wizzard. Now the GM was stuck with his definition. Me, I learned to say the scanner picks up a large basket fruit.
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Such mistakes happens, but to quote a popular phrase "It's magic":
Android: "Magnetic barrier ? I throw <add non ferrous object here>."
GM: "It is deflected."
Android: "? But ..."
GM: "Oh, your scanner now pick up a barrier that seems to be made out of wood."
(or "... made of a large basket fruit")
I have to admit that I am a kind of player who sometimes act like the android,
but our GM is cool and would change things - and I accept it.
Sorry for being off topic - have to add it to my location ;)