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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMSS/FRP => Topic started by: DavidKlecker on July 23, 2007, 09:32:33 AM

Title: Dual Professions
Post by: DavidKlecker on July 23, 2007, 09:32:33 AM

Does anyone have any rules under the Rolemaster System that could cover players choosing two professions? For example perhaps a player wanted to be a Soldier but also piloting. What if you had a soldier and a doctor?

I had a few ideas but perhaps someone has something that has been proven and tested.

The idea I had was to have two types of dual-classing

Primary class: This means one profession is primary and the other secondary. All dev costs match that of the primary as do the profession bonuses however the main categories (up to three) that are the most important for the secondary profession are changed so the dev costs match and any class adjustments (occupational, everyman, restricted) are as well added. Also the player gets the "primary" category for a profession bonus for the secondary profession (did that make sense) but only at half. So if the secondary profession such as Doctor, has a +20 in the group Medical, then that group gets a +10.

Dual Class: This means both professions are equally learned. All dev costs are averaged. The profession costs are averaged and only the primary profession classes are adjusted (up to three). For example, again with Doctor, the skills First Aid, Anatomy and whatever else have class adjustments and these three will be appended to the character sheet.

I don't know if this makes any sense, is too complex, can be made simpler, etc.

Thanks for the help. :)

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: markc on July 23, 2007, 12:42:12 PM

 I think you are getting profession mixed up with job. IMO any RM porfession can learn any job. But for some professions it is easier than others.
 So I do not see the need for duel professions in RM because any profession can buy any skill [RMSS]. I know that RMC and RM2 are different than RMSS and this is not the case but even thier if I remember right most every profession can buy most skills.
MDC

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: DavidKlecker on July 23, 2007, 05:27:03 PM

Okay... then a little clarification help is needed. :)

If someone had a character that was a soldier and during his active duty time he was trained as a medical doctor. How could this be characterized as a profession? The fighter profession would cover soldier but he would receive similar training and skills an ordinary doctor would was well. That is one could assume his medical development cost should be lower, however a fighter profession most certainly wouldn't allow this.

One could certainly use training packages, however I really don't like the way a training package is set up, you get the ranks but after that, there are really no benefits from the package other than the ranks.

Perhaps I am just not clear on the Rolemaster idea of profession versus Job versus Training Package

Thanks! :)

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: yammahoper on July 23, 2007, 05:49:54 PM

In RM, profession determines your fundamental outlook on life, and thus sets your skill cost.  Everyone can learn anything, but your fundamental outlook on life effects how easy or dificult that is.

So our fighter recieves training in medicine.  I assume you are thinking he recieves enough training to be competent, and thus his skill should reflect that.

Fact is, all RPG's are awful at portraying this.  No game system allows you gain a big bunch of skill ranks, free, at once.  The level system alone is designed to limit certain abilities, creating a stick by which ability can be measured, in a strictly artificial manner.  A way around this that stays within the systems intent can be stolen from HARP.  When new training is available, the player may buy as many ranks as he normally could up to his level limits, even paying the dev at next level advancement.  Since in game cost are being roleplayed, allowing this is not a simple handout.  So, if your 7th level fighter gains access to surgery, diagnostics and second aid, he could buy up to 14 ranks in each skill, or 7 ranks if only a catagory with single rank advancement per level.

lynn

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: markc on July 23, 2007, 08:17:27 PM

 If I understand you right you would like to change the skill point cost for any skills if you are trying to activly learn the skill. [I left out the type of skill because in the past it has been argued that spells are a type of skill and non-spell casters can use it to gain spells, easyer.] 

 1) IMO your choice of profession is a genetic stamp on what is easy or hard to learn.
 2) TP give a 25% discount on skill cost. I think to represent focused training on the part of the character.
 3) In SM:P in order to be a doctor, lawyer you have to take the TP to be reconised as one. [The side note is that you have to have at least 6 ranks in medical practrice to be a doctor and ??? skill for lawyer]. Even if you have 10,0000 ranks is medical skills you are not a doctor until you take the TP.
4) I agree that most profession type skills have an identity crisus until the reach 6th to 10th rank and even than what does it all mean? In my game I ruled that if you have a skill of 55+ you are good enough to get a job in that field. If you do not you can not or you are highered for a lessor possition.
 I also think some more skill ranks need to be given out at adol. to the profession and craft skills to make them more relevent.

MDC

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: Cory Magel on July 23, 2007, 10:13:29 PM

Not to sound like a stick in the mud... but I simply wouldn't allow two professions. When a player asks me that I say "You mean like you want to be a Fighter and a Theif? Then play a Rogue."

Anyhow, I really have yet to find an idea we can't construct using the Professions, Training Packages and Talents.

Quote

If someone had a character that was a soldier and during his active duty time he was trained as a medical doctor. How could this be characterized as a profession?

First I'd start by looking at these professions: Rogue (probably with Channeling, maybe Mentalism), Paladin, Layman (again with Channeling, maybe Mentalism), Lay Healer, Cleric, or possibly even a Ranger.
Next I'd have him pick up at least one combat oriented Training Package and one medical related Training Package. If possible a combat Lifestyle and a medically related Vocation. Or the opposite if using a Cleric or Layman.
Last I'd take a look though the Talents and pick up some to enhance the medical side, especially if a Pure Arms or Semi-Spell User. If a Ley Healer or a Cleric I'd pick up some combat enhancing ones.

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: DavidKlecker on July 24, 2007, 05:47:58 AM

Thanks for the advice. It really helps. :)

I may make subtle changes to the training packages and go with Markc's idea and give maybe the character 10 ranks which can be placed as hobby ranks but call them profession ranks. That is, pick a group of skills (no more than 5 perhaps) to add ranks in order to build an identity. These ranks would be more strict in their placement than hobby ranks. However this just opens the door for abuse and I'm hesitant to even use it.

However the training packages I think could use a little work, mainly with the Lifestyle package. I may increase the price for the lifestyle packages in order for the player to get a few more perks. That is, a few categories will be offset to reflect that a significant amount of training was done. For example, Doctor could easily be a lifestyle package and the Medical category (exists in our house rules skill set) would be offset by (1/2), that is, if the cost was originally 3/7, then the new cost is 2/5. This would only happen to a few categories. Also I may decide to give a skill, if appropriate a bump in class rating from normal to everyman. For example, Skilled Marksman could get a bump in a missile weapon from normal to everyman.

These are just things I'm throwing around. Perhaps I should just leave things the way they are. ;)

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: markc on July 24, 2007, 05:16:23 PM

Monk,
 How about if you the GM place the ranks instead of the character? I have done this and it has helped in the abuse area you have talked about.
MDC

BTW, if you have Talent law or any race creation rules you can see how they deal with adol ranks and hobby ranks. As you said you can make your own type of ranks and restrict them how you want or amke them spend them how you want. IMO it is one of the strengths of the RM system to be able to adapt to your ideal game world.
MDC 

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: DavidKlecker on July 24, 2007, 05:57:38 PM

Quote from: markc on July 24, 2007, 05:16:23 PM

Monk,
 How about if you the GM place the ranks instead of the character? I have done this and it has helped in the abuse area you have talked about.
MDC

BTW, if you have Talent law or any race creation rules you can see how they deal with adol ranks and hobby ranks. As you said you can make your own type of ranks and restrict them how you want or amke them spend them how you want. IMO it is one of the strengths of the RM system to be able to adapt to your ideal game world.
MDC 

Good idea. I think I will do that. [;)]

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: Rivstyx on July 25, 2007, 07:55:47 AM

I believe there really is no need for multi-classing.  There is barely a need for single classing :) The system already supports fighters who can cast fireballs so no one is truly limited by their profession.  Multi-classing is popular in D&D because it has a very rigid class system.  Rolemaster does not have that problem.  With enough dev points you can do whatever you want.

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: DavidKlecker on July 25, 2007, 08:57:16 AM

Awesome! I love this forum!  :)

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: markc on July 25, 2007, 02:46:59 PM

 I think another thing is that I consider a 3rd to 5th level character as being like a 1st level D&D character. You do need a number of ranks in stuff to be able to do stuff you are used to in other games. In my world most average people are between 3rd and 8th level. my player keep this in mind if I start them at 1st level as the cop on the street is very likely to kick thier a$$, if they get into a fight.
 So another thing I would look into doing is start pure arms at 3rd, semi at 4th and pure spell users at 5th level. I have found it works very well and is balanced.
MDC

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: yammahoper on July 25, 2007, 06:57:08 PM

Quote

start pure arms at 3rd, semi at 4th and pure spell users at 5th level

I would reverse this.  Otherwise a great idea.  However, I would add as an optional rule a bg option that could be bought for a roll on the "previous exp" table.  Three tables, non spell, semi spell and hybrid/pure spell users.  There could even be three columns per table, for 1 bg option spent, 2 bg options spent, and 4 bg options spent.  This way they can't just EXPECT to always start at a higher level.

lynn

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: markc on July 25, 2007, 07:36:34 PM

Yamma,
 I have found in RMSS that arms players seam to have an advatage till around 10th level and then the pure spell users take over the #1 position. So in between I have found that arms users tend to gain more exp and by 10th level they are about the same level. I have not run any games where the level is above 20 so I do not know if pures continue thier power reign at that level but I would assume they do.
MDC

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: yammahoper on July 26, 2007, 07:50:31 PM

Marc, your stated reason is the best reason to limit the spell users more than the pures.  When all spellusers are not only potentially more powerful than any given mundane if they survive that long, but actually are inheriently more powerful than even your begining non spell user, well, the only thing to be is a spell user cuz your kind will be the ruling class.  This flys in the face of the traditional outlook were spell users are highly sought after and respected individuals of great and secret power that are very rare and hard to come by.  And when magic is so common that the street lights in a city are lit by it, then magic becomes a very mundane thing.

The mage will rule if he gets to the same and higher level than the fighter.  Thus the fighter should start on top, unless you run a magetochrocy sort of game/world.

lynn

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: markc on July 26, 2007, 09:26:46 PM

Are you saying the casters should be 3rd level to start and whith thier slow exp gain compaired to pure arms; at 10th the pure arms will be 13th+ and above?
MDC

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: Cory Magel on July 27, 2007, 12:20:27 AM

I've played both a Semi and a Pure Arms to the upper teens and our particular group didn't find large imbalances. But, different groups will get different milage out of the system.

One thing I can comment on that should hold true to some extent is that the Pure Spell Users tended to have to manage their power points or risk running out and becoming a "man with a stick" (our term for a pure caster with no PPs).

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: yammahoper on July 28, 2007, 07:42:33 AM

Quote

Are you saying the casters should be 3rd level to start and whith thier slow exp gain compaired to pure arms; at 10th the pure arms will be 13th+ and above?
MDC

Yes, exactly.  The slower initial exp gain is traditional flaw of being a spell user, who after level 8-10 can wipe out large number of enemies and has superior problem solving tools via spells, resulting in advancing faster than nons.

lynn

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: Balhirath on July 28, 2007, 05:26:25 PM

Quote from: Monk on July 24, 2007, 05:57:38 PM

Quote from: markc on July 24, 2007, 05:16:23 PM

Monk,
 How about if you the GM place the ranks instead of the character? I have done this and it has helped in the abuse area you have talked about.
MDC

Good idea. I think I will do that. [;)]

I have done this and it works just fine.
Another way of doing it is to change a few skill cost.
Take the fighter who is a Pilot.
He wouldn't be very good at Melee combat, but would have better technical skills. So just change a few skillcost and there you have it :)

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: markc on July 29, 2007, 05:37:14 PM

Quote from: yammahoper on July 28, 2007, 07:42:33 AM

Quote

Are you saying the casters should be 3rd level to start and whith thier slow exp gain compaired to pure arms; at 10th the pure arms will be 13th+ and above?
MDC

Yes, exactly.  The slower initial exp gain is traditional flaw of being a spell user, who after level 8-10 can wipe out large number of enemies and has superior problem solving tools via spells, resulting in advancing faster than nons.

lynn

I think are games are different enough to be generating the difference of oponion. As in my game the power of the pures does not give them a huge advantage after 10th. They tend to play the role of hevy firepower or support to the frount line troops.
MDC

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: Cormac Doyle on August 05, 2007, 07:05:43 PM

Sorry about the late reply - been on holidays ...

This has come up before ...

1. The character's "Profession" is not the job they do - rather, it is they way they learn ... thus a character cannot be more than one profession, and cannot change profession.

2. If you do not want to give your character crappy costs - don't pick "extreme" professions

3. there needs to be rules for rapid skill progression within certain parameters. We hope to introduce formal rules in one of the up-coming RMC titles. until then ... use the following (NB - since this is Rolemaster ... there simply HAS to be a table  ;) ) ...

- For a "single cost skill" (cost is 9, or 20, or some other single number) - this skill is so foreign to the character that even being given the best possible training and teaching cannot improve the COST of developing the skill. However, if the character is in a position to learn the skill quickly (good trainers / plenty of opportunity to train/practice/etc) they may develop more than one rank per level. See table below.

- For "split-cost skills" (cost is 3/7 or some other cost in this format, excluding skills in the following formats - 3/* or 3/3/3) - these skills are the character's most commonly used skills, and they can already develop these quickly. Given the appropriate circumstances (training/mentor/unusual opportunity), they may develop these skills even faster and develop more than two ranks per level. See table below.

- For skills with costs of #/* (#/#/# in RMSS/FRP), the character can already develop more than 2 ranks per level. Given the appropriate opportunity and training, the cost of developing these skills is reduced. See table below.

Cost	Per Level	Per Level	Extended
Type	Normal	Trained	Cost
Single (#)	1	(lvl*1)+1 or 5	#*(ranks developed)
Split (#/$)	2	(lvl*2)+2 or 8	#+$*(ranks developed - 1)
Multiple (#/* or #/#/#)	3 (unlimited)	(lvl*3)+3	#*(ranks developed)*0.8

NB - the number of ranks developed is the LOWER of the two figures listed ...

* When the skill(s) learned in this fashion are part of a "Package", they incur a cost Discount (20% discount ... requires play-testing)
* When the skill(s) learned in this fashion are learned via tuition by a "master", the maximum rank "learnable" by the student is limited by the maximum rank held by the tutor. Additionally, rather than receiving a flat "package" discount, the discount received by the student is derived from the Moving Maneuver chart (Tutor rolls a tuition roll ... if they score above 100%, the amount above 100% is used as the discount. Default difficulty is Medium, buyt GM may modify difficulty for a variety of factors).

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: markc on August 05, 2007, 11:17:18 PM

Nice rules to play test!
MDC

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: DavidKlecker on August 11, 2007, 04:56:40 PM

Hmmm.... I going to have to digest what was said by Cormac.  ???

What I am going to try is staying the course with the RM system and one profession and use the training packages as the job, again as in RM. However I have adjusted a few rules in the training package.

1) A vocational package can be bought up to 3 times
2) A Lifestyle package MUST be bought 3 times. This is to show the greater discipline of training for the job.
3) The first time the package is bought, the price is discounted to 50%. The second time the price is discounted to 25%. The third time the price is discounted to 10%.
4) Each purchase allows another attempt at getting any special items, missed the last time.
5) After the third and final purchase, certain category skill costs are adjusted slightly to show that the character has acquired enough knowledge to not only perform the job but to learn more. This can never be better than what the "ideal" profession would cost. For example, if a person took a Weapon Master package, their primary category can never be better than that of a fighter.
6) Special bonus, class adjustments can also be made if appropriate. Again never better than the "ideal" profession for the package. That is a Rogue can be trained to match the weapon skills of a fighter, but in the end, the Fighter should still have the greater advantage in his profession. The Rogue may be able to match wits with the sword but the fighters tactics and special attacks should best the Rogue.

I'm going to try this and see how the sheets turn out. I already created a character sheet for myself testing the physician training package. I think I may have overdone it with the ranks.  :-\

So far I like the idea. For me I thought the old model of training packages really didn't add too much to the character to give them the identity of the package. This version definitely shows they have had the training, kinda like the character went to a trade school or learned from a highly skilled master through a serious and disciplined environment.

A couple of pratfalls:
1) what about training during the campaign? If characters start at level 3, I would imagine for the first 3 levels the package purchased should be a lifestyle package. Then during the campaign, if the player has the time to kill to learn another package, then go for it, but in some cases, some campaigns just don't give characters the time to do this.
2) How to keep things balanced between professions?

Let's hope the players like the new setup. Another way to see if the new rules pass the test. ;)

Title: Re: Dual Professions
Post by: markc on August 11, 2007, 06:29:52 PM

Another idea is as one thing goes up another goes down. So if you are increaseing your medical skills maybe your physical skills go down. Or if you are studying both maybe your social skills go down.

IMO RM is all about the GM adjusting the system to thier game. But as you said above you have to keep balance in mind.
MDC