Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Kevin G on December 12, 2011, 07:50:10 PM
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I asked this question on the RPG.net forums but I figured that I would ask the experts here also. I currently own the regular Rolemaster FRP core book and think it is a pretty neat system. So my plan was to originally buy all the other books for it once they become available again on print.
However I was wondering about Rolemaster Classic which I guess is an improved version of Rolemaster 2nd edition. I have seen the comparison charts for the two but being fairly new to Rolemaster, it did not really mean too much to me.
So what would everyone here suggest that I try? I do not really want to go all in with one system and then realize that I should have got the other. More people was suggesting Rolemaster Classic on RPG.net because they said that it is more flexible.
Also what is Iron Crown's plans for Rolemaster in the future? Are both editions going to be further developed, or is only one of them? Or are they both going to eventually go away and a new edition going to replace them?
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All versiobns of RM are good.
RMFRP is fine and very complete. However, all versions are basically compatable. All versions are also very flexible.
You won't be losing out if you stick with what you have.
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While I prefer RMFRP (RMSS), I play RMC. I think the choice to publish RMC first was a purely business decision and not one of one version over the other. From what I understand RMFRP will be coming out in a while. So my answer is to play what you have and like.
I agree with the sentiment all version of RM are great.
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In my opinion if you are newer to RM you should probably stick with RMSS/RMFRP. The reason for this is that RMC does not have as much material out for it and converting RM2 stuff is troublesome if you are not already very familiar with the RM2/RMC mix. RM2 has, in my opinion, balance problems that are typical of any game system that has not gone through a revamp for too long a period of time. RMC fixed (most?) the problems from what I hear, but only for what was/has been produced thus far. Now, if you were very knowledgable about RM in general I'd say consider it... but it doesn't sound like you are yet.
RMSS/RMFRP are better balanced and therefore more newbie friendly than RM2 and has more material out than RMC. RMFRP does not have all the material from RMSS, but you can just the RMSS stuff as is with it. Once you start getting comfortable with the system then start pulling stuff from RM2 or RMC and 'converting' it.
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From what I know both systems are going to be supported but I do not have any info that other readers of the ICE Forum have.
Systems:
First RM2,RMC: RMC is an update of RM2 and quite a few people like it. But most people who have started with newer games like RMSS/FRP better than RM2. There is a lot of older RM2 material in PDF and it can be used with RMC but ICE did not balance the material just printed it.
Second: RMSS/FRP: Both are the same system but RMFRP packaged the material differently. I like the RMSS version as it has more material in the core book. The RMFRP books spread out the material in more books. But both can be used in the same system. As to balance IMHO it is much more balanced than RM2 but it still has some areas that can be broken by a devious player.
Any more questions? Please feel free to ask or PM various ICE Forum members.
MDC
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RM2/C is simpler, I would say. RMSS/FRP addressed a number of concerns some people had about RM2.
As for which is best, it's a matter of taste. I prefer not to play or GM RMSS/FRP but love RM2/C (although I own both, as I am not entirely against RMSS/FRP if there was a chance of playing/running some RM and that was the only edition people wanted), some people feel the same way but with the editions reversed and a lot of people like both systems.
Do you like to write your own adventure and campaign material, or use pre-written stuff? What sort of campaigns do you like to run?
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I asked this question on the RPG.net forums but I figured that I would ask the experts here also. I currently own the regular Rolemaster FRP core book and think it is a pretty neat system. So my plan was to originally buy all the other books for it once they become available again on print.
I don't remember if I answered there... but here goes (maybe again 8)). Although for quite a while I played RMSS/FRP, and I like it, my tastes now would run more toward RMC as I am real sick of the massive amount of skills to deal with in the other editions. But, I would use the spell lists from RMSS/FRP instead, as I feel that they are more "complete." Also, I would likely use the HARP attack tables as I like the way they work better than the different armor types in RM, just quicker with enough realism simulation-ism (is that even a word?) for me.
In my opinion if you are newer to RM you should probably stick with RMSS/RMFRP. The reason for this is that RMC does not have as much material out for it and converting RM2 stuff is troublesome if you are not already very familiar with the RM2/RMC mix.
RMSS/RMFRP are better balanced and therefore more newbie friendly than RM2 and has more material out than RMC. RMFRP does not have all the material from RMSS, but you can just the RMSS stuff as is with it. Once you start getting comfortable with the system then start pulling stuff from RM2 or RMC and 'converting' it.
I don't agree, with either thoughts. RMSS/FRP is definitely more complex and detailed than RMC (I won't comment on RM2 because I would not play it, as there is RMC to take over that role, imo), so are more daunting for newbies. Just sooooo much to deal with.
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The basic difference between RMC and RMFRP is that RMC is written to feel like loose components that you mix together in any way you like. Using RMC wording it is small game core with lot of options. In practice the word option might be questioned since many of these "options" are so essential that people sometimes won't believe you if you point out that something is an option.
RMFRP on the other hand is written to be one coherent game, but if you start looking at components you find them to be same as for RMC. With RMFRP you start with the full skill list and prune it into it fits what you like for your game. With RMC you start with essentially containing dungeon crawl skills and then you add skills until you get something that can support a modern style gaming group.
At the end of the day it is matter of preference and any of the editions give you the opportunity to have loads of fun.
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I don't agree, with either thoughts. RMSS/FRP is definitely more complex and detailed than RMC (I won't comment on RM2 because I would not play it, as there is RMC to take over that role, imo), so are more daunting for newbies. Just sooooo much to deal with.
I did not say RMSS/FRP is less complex than RMC, I said it is better organized and balanced than RM2 and has more material out for it than RMC and, therefore, if you want both a well balanced and fairly complete system to use RMSS/FRP combo rather than RM2/RMC combo.
I have never bothered with RMC - it's for RM2 users that don't want to convert to RMSS/FRP. So I can't really speak to it's complexity. I suspect it's no more or less so when it comes down to it and is just a matter of what the RM user is already familiar with.
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Do you like to write your own adventure and campaign material, or use pre-written stuff? What sort of campaigns do you like to run?
A little of both actually ;). Usually what I like to do is get some good official campaign and adventure material and springboard off of that. I love making my own adventures.
RMFRP on the other hand is written to be one coherent game, but if you start looking at components you find them to be same as for RMC. With RMFRP you start with the full skill list and prune it into it fits what you like for your game. With RMC you start with essentially containing dungeon crawl skills and then you add skills until you get something that can support a modern style gaming group.
What you just said makes a lot of sense to me. I would rather have the feeling of a coherent game as opposed to a bunch of components added on to a smaller base.
Reading over everyone's comments maybe it would be better to start with RMFRP. After all I already have the core book and just have to add the other books. I do plan to still check out RMC later but based off of what everyone here is saying, RMFRP might be a better fit.
So all I need is Arms Law, Character Law, Of Channeling, Of Essence, Of Mentalism and Creatures and Monsters? Anything else that I would need to have the complete system?
Also I would just like to give a big thank you to everybody who posted their thoughts on this thread :). I really appreciate it and just want to make an informed choice. Please feel free to post any additional comments. Thanks again.
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I'd just like to suggest a favorite of mine - School of Hard Knocks. It really brings a lot of clarity to the skills, and includes ideas for specializing in them, example difficulties for various situations, optional stats to use for individual skills, and the category specific maneuver results tables, which are great. As well as several more training packages. Great book.
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If you want to go the RMSS/FRP way, I recommend looking into this option for a simplified skill system:
http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2010/dec/rmss_jahnke_simplified_skill-system.pdf
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So all I need is Arms Law, Character Law, Of Channeling, Of Essence, Of Mentalism and Creatures and Monsters? Anything else that I would need to have the complete system?
On top of what you named, Channeling Companion, Essence Companion, Mentalism Companion, Treasure Companion, Martial Arts Companion, Castle & Ruins, The Armory, School of Hard Knocks, Elemental Companion, Arcane Companion, Construct Companion.
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So all I need is Arms Law, Character Law, Of Channeling, Of Essence, Of Mentalism and Creatures and Monsters? Anything else that I would need to have the complete system?
On top of what you named, Channeling Companion, Essence Companion, Mentalism Companion, Treasure Companion, Martial Arts Companion, Castle & Ruins, The Armory, School of Hard Knocks, Elemental Companion, Arcane Companion, Construct Companion.
Though, none of those are needed, they are nice to have and give you more options. But, the ones you listed are pretty-much needed - especially if you want your spellcasters to be able to cast spells higher than 10th level, which is as high as they go in the core book.
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jaranka, Moriarty, Temujin, and RandalThor thanks for the advice. One question though, it seems like the School of Hard Knocks is not currently available from the stores that Ironcrown uses. Any idea where I can get a hold of a copy besides maybe Ebay?
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jaranka, Moriarty, Temujin, and RandalThor thanks for the advice. One question though, it seems like the School of Hard Knocks is not currently available from the stores that Ironcrown uses. Any idea where I can get a hold of a copy besides maybe Ebay?
Noble Knight has two:
http://www.nobleknight.com/ViewProducts.asp_Q_ProductLineID_E_2137418503_A_ManufacturerID_E_25_A_CategoryID_E_16_A_GenreID_E__A_Page_E_3_A_hidepictures_E__A_ItemsPage_E_10
>>ReaperWolf
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I did not say RMSS/FRP is less complex than RMC, I said it is better organized and balanced than RM2 and has more material out for it than RMC and, therefore, if you want both a well balanced and fairly complete system to use RMSS/FRP combo rather than RM2/RMC combo.
RM2 had way more supplements than RMSS/FRP and RMC is RM2. Getting pdfs of the RM2 supplements will have to wait in some cases, though, but it doesn't take too long to get hard copies of most of the RM2 stuff.
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RM2 had way more supplements than RMSS/FRP and RMC is RM2. Getting pdfs of the RM2 supplements will have to wait in some cases, though, but it doesn't take too long to get hard copies of most of the RM2 stuff.
Exactly. RM2 had way more stuff put out for it, which eventually became the problem. There was little to no oversight on the organization and balance of all the supplements and, unless you were pretty well versed in the system and had a good handle on how to make sure things didn't get out of hand, it started to cause problems. RMC is RM2 that has been 'fixed', but only a portion of all the stuff published has gone through the filter... so using RM2 stuff as-is with it ends up causing the same problem for someone new to RM in general.
You have the same carry-over from RMSS to RMFRP, but there was more control by the designers when it came to organization and balance in RMSS. RMSS put out a decent amount of material before they decided to revamp to RMFRP, although not as much as RM2. While I believe a system should have a new version put out at least every 7-10 years I honestly didn't see the point of RMFRP. Existing RM users didn't really need it, luring new customers needed a system which would be perceived as simpler (which I do not think RMFRP accomplished), and there was still a decent amount of stuff that could have been published under RMSS. I suspect ICE just didn't have the resources to come up with new material, so they opted for a revamp instead.
Anyhow, so in my opinion, the best place for someone to start fresh with RM is to use RMSS or RMFRP and, once familiar with the system, start converting over RM2/RMC material. You have better balance and organization, you have a decent amount of material, then once you really know your stuff start stealing material from the other versions of the system that you like. We converted a lot of RM2 stuff into a highly customized D&D for years. Might work out well as some more of the RM2 stuff might get put through the editing filter in the mean time also.
Now, if someone was already an RM2 user and knows the system, that's a whole different story. Go with RMC at that point and convert any cool stuff from RMSS/RMFRP instead.
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I disagree with using RMSS/RMFRP to start out. RMC is probably better. RM2 core was a great system, the companions are what ruined it. Every module put out for MERP or RM2 could be used for RMC.
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You're saying the expansion material is what ruined RM2 then recommend using those same materials with RMC...?
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You're saying the expansion material is what ruined RM2 then recommend using those same materials with RMC...?
It looks to me that Kevin is advocating against the companions and for the modules. I.e., not all expansion material is created equal.
Personally, I needs me my expansions, so I play RMSS almost exclusively ('cause overall it's more balanced).
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And it's possible that he's saying if you're going to learn a new system anyway, go ahead and learn RMC. You'll have to watch out for balance and game logic issues when you try to integrate stuff from RM2 Companions regardless of which system you integrate them into. But the integration process is easier from RM2 to RMC.
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I definitely prefer RM2. There's nothing that says you have to use the companions, and in fact I went through and was pretty selective about what I used. I don't think it was ever intended for people to use everything in every companion.
RMSS, to me, seemed way too templated, especially when there was no good explanation of the reason for those templates. This applies especially to the racial profiles. It was clear that they were developed for a particular world or setting, but without that background it was just a bunch of clutter that I'd have to strip away or develop explanations for. Better to use RM2 and mold it to your purposes.
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I don't think it was ever intended for people to use everything in every companion.
In fact, I'm fairly certain there were disclaimers in all of them basically saying don't try, it won't work.
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I don't think it was ever intended for people to use everything in every companion.
In fact, I'm fairly certain there were disclaimers in all of them basically saying don't try, it won't work.
You are correct. I always felt RMC I was perhaps the most unified, but I also think that was a direct "dump" of someone's campaign material. RMC III tended to work fairly well if you were looking for new professions, but again it was very much a "pick and choose" environment. When I customized the whole RM2 thing for my world, I used elements from RMC I-III, although to be honest I used very few of the professions in RMC II.
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RM2 is like a kit, from which you can build a good game, but it takes some work. (Or you can ignore the companions entirely.) It's disorganized and unbalanced, issues that you need to resolve. You may not discover what is broken until you start playing. I assume RMC resolved some of that, although not having seen RMC I can't say to what degree.
RMSS/RMFRP are an assembled kit. It's much better planned out. However, they may have used too many parts. It would not hurt to trim the skill list. That said, RMSS/RMFRP are entirely playable as-is and you don't have to worry so much about breaking things. If you can get through making characters you can easily handle everything else.
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RMSS/RMFRP are an assembled kit. It's much better planned out. However, they may have used too many parts. It would not hurt to trim the skill list. That said, RMSS/RMFRP are entirely playable as-is and you don't have to worry so much about breaking things. If you can get through making characters you can easily handle everything else.
Perhaps, but to me it always felt like you had the kit but no instructions or idea what they were about when they put the kit together. It just didn't work with my world at all. But YMMV, of course.
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I AM saying the companions are what introduced the imbalances and when you start learning the system, DON'T use the companions. I did use material from the companions initially and we found issues with them so weaned people off of them. (After RMCIII came out, I stopped buying companions. RMCI had some balance issues, RMCII had a lot and RMCIII was pretty much unuseable.)
Start with RMC, learn it. Then add stuff that you think will work in your world.
RMSS/RMFRP took a lot of the bad stuff from the RM2 expansions and incorporated them. Additionally, a first level character in RMC and RMSS are a totally different breed. They front end loaded characters in RMSS so you have higher starting OB, PP, etc and aren't going to improve a lot over time, in RM2/RMC, you start low and build up.
Honestly, in RMSS, you aren't 'first level" when you start. You have completed adolescence, apprenticeship and have a bit of military service (or its equivalent) behind you.
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All system bias' aside I'd rather have the more complete system (i.e. expansions included) without the balance issues.
Having used large portions of RM2 and having played RM in general (and designing some of it I guess) for many years I don't pay much attention to the technicalities of the systems anymore since we just create or modify during conversion from one version of RM to the other... but if I was first getting into a system I wouldn't want to have to choose between waiting for expansion materials or attempting to convert unbalanced materials.
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On top of what you named, Channeling Companion, Essence Companion, Mentalism Companion, Treasure Companion, Martial Arts Companion, Castle & Ruins, The Armory, School of Hard Knocks, Elemental Companion, Arcane Companion, Construct Companion.
Be careful if you use the RMSS/RMFRP Channeling Companion as the Priest concept allows the building of a customized Priest via selecting your base lists - you need to be careful the base lists aren't all really strong ones.
I highly recommend the Marital Arts Companion as it gives pure arms users a little love in comparison to spell using professions. Might be a little hard to get your hands on though.
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I highly recommend the Marital Arts Companion as it gives pure arms users a little love...
!!!
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I highly recommend the Marital Arts Companion as it gives pure arms users a little love...
I think I've been taking a recurring "E" maintenance critical after failing a Marital RR !!!
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I think, with both systems you can have fun, both are flexible. Its a matter of taste.
I've played RM2 many years ago and it was very good but (as mentioned before) unbalanced (we need many house rules).
In my opinion RMFRP is a very good successor of RM2 (I don't know RMC), I don't need house rules.
And RMFRP has the best ;) (SCNR) character generator: Rolemaster Office
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It's RM2 for me and my group, has been for many years, but that said, it's evolved into game of our own.
I would suggest going for RMC if you're starting from scratch.
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I highly recommend the Marital Arts Companion as it gives pure arms users a little love...
!!!
lol... I don't know if that was a Freudian slip or just a plain old typo. (Planning a wedding for next August).
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Definitely RMSS.
I’ve played RM2 for several years and decided to become a GM. That’s when my local shop sold me RMSS. That was in 1997, I never jumped to another system ever since.
I find this game superior to RM2 on many aspects : magic, character power management and creation, skills. Instead of handing out a gazillon profession, there are fewer but with talents, TPs and everyman and occupational skills you can twist them into variants. And on top of that, most companions are pure jewels, the latest not the least.
I tried RMC, had a game with friends. We found it lacking from the get go. Less power is not an issue but less possibilities is.
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And on top of that, most companions are pure jewels, the latest not the least.
Which one was the latest?
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Honestly, in RMSS, you aren't 'first level" when you start. You have completed adolescence, apprenticeship and have a bit of military service (or its equivalent) behind you.
Which isn't one of the flaws, to me. But that is me not liking the starting at first level stuff anymore. I prefer to play a character that has some experience under his belt. But, I would still go with RMC, bringing in the extra bits that I wanted from the RM2 Companions.
I highly recommend the Marital Arts Companion as it gives pure arms users a little love...
I think I've been taking a recurring "E" maintenance critical after failing a Marital RR !!!
Hah! I didn't even notice. Nice catch. I'm sure it was Freudian........
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And on top of that, most companions are pure jewels, the latest not the least.
Which one was the latest?
Construct companion.
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Which isn't one of the flaws, to me. But that is me not liking the starting at first level stuff anymore. I prefer to play a character that has some experience under his belt. But, I would still go with RMC, bringing in the extra bits that I wanted from the RM2 Companions.
I agree about the characters effectively being the equivalent (say, compared to D&D) of higher than first level not being a flaw of the system. RM is deadly if used as-is without any GM fudging... I think it's a good thing that they have more survivability as a result.
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I find both systems to work, and that the major variation between them is "Which one are you most comfortable with?"
There's differences, but not huge ones, and I've never had much problem adapting RM2 stuff to RMSS or vice versa.
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There's differences, but not huge ones, and I've never had much problem adapting RM2 stuff to RMSS or vice versa.
Agreed, using elements of one in another has never been much of a problem for me.
I find both systems to work, and that the major variation between them is "Which one are you most comfortable with?"
Well, that can be said of all things. Except there are those people. You know the ones, they specifically do things that are outside their comfort zone. Like, like, like ADVENTURERS! Crazy people, I tell ya. Ever last one of 'um.
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Except there are those people. You know the ones, they specifically do things that are outside their comfort zone. Like, like, like ADVENTURERS! Crazy people, I tell ya. Ever last one of 'um.
Well if you're going to let people like that into your game, you might as well throw the rule book away at the beginning, just to save time. It's all going to end in chaos anyway.
;D