Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMSS/FRP => Topic started by: bones996 on September 08, 2011, 09:34:03 AM
-
I was wondering if the Misfeel Kind spell could be used to appear to be an animal for detection purposes? There are several similar versions of this spell with sometimes slightly different wording that makes me wonder.
The reason is because we recently had a Magent trying to hide from a ranger's Nature's Awareness spell. Our thinking is that the ranger overlooked the Magent because he seemed to be an animal.
If not, are there any mentalism spells which would enable this, something like the Animal Thoughts spell from one of the ranger's base lists?
Thanks in advance :)
-
Hmm, that's a good question. . .it does say "Race" which is often interchangeable with species, but not always, since a "Race" must be sentient.
-
True, but we decided that animals are "sentient" on at least a minimal level. After all there must be something there for the different "animal" type spells to work on them. Maybe?
After all, there is the Animal Thoughts spell under the ranger's base list - Nature's Guises, which states that "the caster’s mental patterns will appear to be those of any animal he has studied".
As for race/species, that is sort of where we get lost.
-
For me, I think "Kind" is the important word here.
If you are a human and want to hide from magical detection in an orc camp, Misfeel Kind is great.
IMHO, it should only change apparent race; sentient race. Animals are not of Kind as the other races in RM.
Just my opinion.
Check out this thread on Nature's Awareness.
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=11134.0
-
also, most misfeel spells are designed to affect an incoming spell
nature's awareness is not a resistable spell, because the person is not being targetted; the Ranger/Animist is merely fed the information as observed by the animals, insects, nature spirits and the like;
A misfeel spell in this circumstance would be no more useful than it would be if you were standing in the middle of a crowded room ... they can all see you
The only way to avoid it is to use illusions that cover all senses ... Misfeels only affect mental/magical probing ... and Nature's awareness does not count as a magical probe
-
As a Magent, I think Shadow Assassin could help. Maybe it's an animal, maybe it's a person. Nature isn't sure.
For me, Unknown Assassin could do it. Now this isn't the original intent of the spell, I'm sure. I might require concentration for this instance. But that's not RAW.
Nondetect for sure, but I've not seen a Magent of level to cast it.
Maybe Animal Thoughts is to hide from Nature's Awareness. :)
-
Thanks for the input everyone, especially the link to the other post. Guess the Magent is going to have to go back to spell school & research a new spell if he wants to hide from a ranger in the future :) He was getting a little too rich anyways ;)
-
There is a list in the Mentalism Companion that I think might work, it is one of the "doppelganger" lists, IIRC.
I as a GM might also give the Ranger a funny reading if there is a animal bonded or other such type bond in the range of his spell. But I do not think that is official in any way.
MDC
-
Page 155 of the Ment Comp Spell list Mind Shifting has a spell Mental Shift I that lets you shift your mental reading to a race, etc. I think I would allow a 21st rank spell to allow you to shift your mental readings to replicate an animal. Note the 21st rank spell Mental Shift II ( I would name it) would have to be created.
The other spell list I was thinking of was Body Shifting and it states the shifted caster retains his mental capabilities and IMHO would read as such to various spells.
MDC
-
Page 155 of the Ment Comp Spell list Mind Shifting has a spell Mental Shift I that lets you shift your mental reading to a race, etc. I think I would allow a 21st rank spell to allow you to shift your mental readings to replicate an animal. Note the 21st rank spell Mental Shift II ( I would name it) would have to be created.
The other spell list I was thinking of was Body Shifting and it states the shifted caster retains his mental capabilities and IMHO would read as such to various spells.
MDC
The question, however, was about Nature's Awareness, which does not work by reading the the target's mind, detecting his aura, or any such such method. It detects movement, even subtle movement (e.g., breathing). Depending on how the GM interprets this working, it may be easier or harder to foil, but mental protections aren't going to do a bit of good, because it isn't a mind scan. For me, you'd have to find a way to avoid moving the air (the part of nature most sensitive to movement) in order to hide from this spell. Non-living entities would mostly be able to just hold still; sound eliminating spells could judged to be sufficient for a human who stands still (walking would still create displacement).
-
Ok looked at the spell, this is one of those spells that seem easy but are in fact very tough as the caster can detect a lot of movement in the area. Wind blowing branches, leaves, spiders walking across the forests floor, etc in a 100' radius.
To me this is detection, as to get information about anything you have to receive that information from the thing. In this case the thing(s) that moved.
Some Problems I see:
1) What does "Subtle Movement" mean?
a) Does that not include "Non-Subtle Movement" also?
b) Is this animal movement only or also human type movement?
2) How does the Ranger analyse the info coming in?
a) Do they just get a vague feeling of lots of movement 75' to the left? Or does the Ranger get more info, such as 12 two legged creatures sneaking up 75' to the west by the large bolder by the great oak?
b) Does the Ranger have to make a perception roll to sort all of the info out?
c) Or does the spell automatically tell the Ranger everything movements in the area? (IMHO if it does this it is very powerful and makes the Ranger a super detector in the wilderness.)
I think I would House Rules this that anything that blocks the persons presence such as UnPresence would afffect the spell. I might have them make a RR vs each other, or require a perception roll, or something like that but I think UnPresence is powerful enough to disrupt Natures Awareness.
MDC
-
Presence is mental presence. . .if you cast Unpresence on yourself and walked around, nobody would be able to tell the difference except people detecting or sensing minds, like mentalists.
Nature's awareness detects motion, so the way to fool it would be to not move at all, stay out of the radius, blend into a larger object (like using one of the spells that let you merge into solids say), or appear as something that belongs. . .like if you change into a tree or an animal, the ranger might see you but not notice you as standing out.
But IMO unpresence wouldn't affect that. . .any more than invisibility would work, as they negate a sense other than the one in use
One way of looking at it, nature's awareness gives you a large radius sense of touch, Unpresence negates Presence, Invisibility negates Vision.
A feel illusion might be usable to negate the "feel" of motion when you move and act like invisibility vs nature's awareness.
-
If it helps any, a little while ago I was looking at the Combat Companion & I saw this for Unpresence
"..As Misfeel Kind, except that the caster appears to have no presence (i.e. he cannot be detected by Presence and Awareness spells)".
I know that the Companion isn't RMSS/FRP, but this passage does give a solid answer. It's on page 25 under the Unpresence spell description.
-
It almost seems like Nature's Awareness should require an orientation roll, simply due to the amount of information being provided to the Ranger. It'd be great in a quiet glade, but I can see it being more difficult to use, say, in the midst of battle.
-
Well, the Ranger has a lot of information in a realism sense, but in terms of information supplied that's useful, he'd know something like "a man-sized creature is moving at a walking pace through that grove". It is hard to counter, but isn't that powerful. I think the need to process the information is dealt with adequately by the need for Concentration. Nature's Awareness I is a 10th level spell. Compare with Presence which is a 2nd level Closed Mentalism or 1st level Base Mentalist spell that does not cost Power Points.
Heck, the Ranger has to super-Concentrate, since he can't move, whereas normally you can Concentrate and move at half your movement. Nature's Awareness does not need to be nerfed.
-
If it helps any, a little while ago I was looking at the Combat Companion & I saw this for Unpresence
"..As Misfeel Kind, except that the caster appears to have no presence (i.e. he cannot be detected by Presence and Awareness spells)".
I know that the Companion isn't RMSS/FRP, but this passage does give a solid answer. It's on page 25 under the Unpresence spell description.
That is the way I have used Unpresence in the past but I have not run across the Natures Awareness interaction before.
Marc R;
I do not know if this is using the "Magical Aura" analogy correctly but as you move your presence bumps into air or objects that the Natures Awareness spell would read thus the Un-spell would block the Awareness Spell from receiving any information.
rdanhenry;
I do not think that Unpressence is nerf'ing the spell as IIRC most unpressence spells are of much higher rank than the natures awareness base spell.
MDC
-
If it helps any, a little while ago I was looking at the Combat Companion & I saw this for Unpresence
"..As Misfeel Kind, except that the caster appears to have no presence (i.e. he cannot be detected by Presence and Awareness spells)".
I know that the Companion isn't RMSS/FRP, but this passage does give a solid answer. It's on page 25 under the Unpresence spell description.
That is the way I have used Unpresence in the past but I have not run across the Natures Awareness interaction before.
It doesn't say "Nature's Awareness". It says "Awareness", which is a spell on the Mentalist's Presence list (which begins "As Presence..."). There's also a different "Awareness" spell at 50th level on the Open Mentalism list Detections. I would not allow Unpresence to block that version of "Awareness", either, since the logical reference is the Presence-based one.
-
IMHO there should be a way to defeat the spell without dispelling it or in essence be unavoidable. I think most magical detection spells have a way to do that and I do not think that Natures Awareness should be the king of such spells.
MDC
-
The spell isn't like most detects, in that it doesn't target the target.
The spell targets "nature" then uses nature to locate and track motion in the radius.
This is more akin to say "Darkvision" or long ear, or long eye. You can't RR vs me casting a spell on me to see in the dark. . .and then I can "see" you in the dark. . . .the way to avoid that is to be invisible, so that when I enhance my vision you're still not visible.
First, depending on system, there are secret rolls for all I spells that can result in bad data.
Beyond that, cast a feel illusion of formless motion across a large area, or the illusion of non motion ala "I feel like a big rock now".
Ranger casts nature's awareness, and either gets the strange sense of formless movement with the former option, or no report at all for the latter. . .I might allow a ranger very aware of the area a check to realize "There is a large rock where there never was a rock before."
The feel illusion would do nothing to conceal you from being seen, much like Unpresence has no effect on your being seen, but it can change how you're being felt. . .which appears to be the operative sense for this spell.
-
some spells allow assuming pattern of plants or small animals. that should work to bypass these kinds of detect spells.
-
Mrac R;
I think (and hope) we can agree to disagree about the Un-Presence working on the spell.
Besides that I still have a big problem with the spell detecting movement. Does it just say ok there is movement here and movement over there. Or does it just say there is movement within the 100' sphere? How small of movement does it detect? Does it detect movement in the air or below the ground with in the radius? Does it provide you with an air movement map of the area so you can essentially map the area by looking at the wind patters? Does it detect change in movement or delta movement? To me delta movement is much more valuable than just saying there is movement over here.
Also in a forest there is a good chance there will be movement everywhere in the radius. How much will depend on how people (or you) rule the spell works. IMHO it will detect worms in the ground, wind moving leaves, birds in the air, spiders moving, bugs , etc. That is a lot of movement and the spell lacks just what or how you deal with said information.
IMHO people would get a RR vs the spell since as soon as you move it detects you. Yes you are doing the moving so you get a RR.
On a more important note I do not like to nerf any of the Ranger spells as I think they are sort of weak to begin with and swap quite a few out in my game to provide the Ranger with more balance vs. the other professions (in the combat area and in general).
MDC
-
Presence would not detect a mindless automaton like a golem, it simply fails to meet the criteria of detection that presence keys on, which is "Sentient/Intelligent".
On the other hand "Natures Awareness" would indeed detect a mindless, but animate golem walking across it's radius? The criteria that Nature's awareness keys on is animate activity, even subtle animate activity. A mindless but moving golem is indeed animate activity.
"Unpresence" would make a human target appear as mindless as a golem, and immune to presence, but just as detectable as animate as before you cast the spell.
I'm not seeing the cross connection relating "Unpresence" to "Nature's Awareness", to my reading they operate on totally different vectors.
-
Marc R
BTW, arguing in good natured way.
IMHO you are using the "letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law" in that the term "movement" is different than other "term" modifiers used in other spell descriptions. Or flavor text vs. flavor text of various spells.
If it would help I think the text should be changed to "... detect any moving presence." This IMHO is the spirit of the spell and should have been the word of the spell.
To me the above change would solve a big problem. The Ranger could id the movement based on intelligence so worm movement would be different from human movement ... if the worm did not have the same intelligence as a human.
But I am not the official rules guy either and I can understand the difficulty in providing official answers and all that goes with it.
Also when I try and look at spell I try and see the meta frame work in which the work across the realms. With some realms maybe getting an exception here or there but in general all spells fitting the framework. If you chose to think in terms of ream to realm abilities and how far they are away from other reams I would say that Mentalism abilities are closest to Essence then Channeling. So a 1st rank spell in Mentalsim might be a 7th rank spell for a Pure Channeler and a 10th rank spell for a semi Channeler. In the same theme in the 1st rank Mentalsim spell might also be a 4-5th rank semi Essence user spell or a 3rd rank pure essence user spell.
**Note: IMHO the Channeling Companion can blur the lines of the above realm theory quite a bit as a cleric of the "god of the mind" might have the same rank mental spells as a mentalism user.
MDC
-
I dunno that it's a letter of the law thing, it's more that I think you're saying an anti-apple spell will protect you from oranges.
Invisibility makes you non visible, impossible to see. . .this will work vs normal vision, nightvision, long eye, any of the various "see through material" x-ray vision spells, etc. This doesn't make you silent, or odorless, or in any other way affect anything other than sight.
Unpresence makes your mind undetectable to mental perception. This doesn't make you invisible or silent, or odorless, or in any other way affect anything other than mental perception.
I concur with your thesis that every I spell should have a counterbalancing method to defeat it, I merely don't see the connection between "Natures Awareness" which operates off of motion/feel and unpresence and it's effect on mental perception.
Any of the various feel effecting spells, or an anti-channeling spell would seem to be the contrary effect needed to block Nature's Awareness.
-
The spell detects animate activity. Sounds like movement. Subtle movements = breathing is open to interpretation, but I could see it. IMHO, stopping all animate activity is the way to avoid it.
-
Marc R;
What I am trying to say is that IMHO in case of brevity I think the spells description has been chopped to save space and the original meaning of the spell has been changed in the process. IMHO there are very few spells at low rank that deviate from other standard RM "effects" and RM "game mechanics" across the 3 realms. IMHO when looking at Arcane lists it is more likely to deviate from the standard RM "effects" and RM "game mechanics" than the 3 realms but in a small way. Maybe by 1% to 5% of low rank spells being different.
Having said that IMHO Natures Awareness is providing an "effect" that is vastly different from any other in the game. I do not think that was the authors idea when writing the flavor text of the spell. IMHO the author was going for more of a detect moving "presence" feel, which has some precedence in other spell lists.
Just my 2 cents, and I humbly thank all for reading in good spirit with smiles on your face.
MDC
-
The problem with that is intellect, or lack thereof.
I don't think a nature's awareness spell would fail on mindless undead say. . .but a presence spell would.
The undead are animate, and moving, and thus would show up to the NA spell. They are mindless, so wouldn't appear to the presence spell.
Unpresence gives the "illusion" of mindlessness, making the target as invisible to presence spells as a mindless undead. . .but even mindless undead would be perceived by a NA spell, so the unpresence would have no effect on NA.
Not disputing the logic that NA should have an anti-effect, just think that unpresence fits that bill as little as misfeel kind does. The protection offered doesn't match the mode of the I spell in question.
If Unpresence was an effective counter to NA, then mindless creatures would be immune to it's effect, which isn't indicated anywhere.
-
Marc R;
On the undead note I would make a comment that states they would be detected with the spell but could be hidden by UnPresence.
MDC
-
If we interpret Nature Awareness to detect "animate movement", then I think the counter would actually be the various Awareness skills, and possibly an Orientation roll. Want to "listen" (focus) on worm movements? Go ahead...but roll to pick it out amongst all the noise. Think of it like looking at the motion tracker on Aliens. If lots of big things are stomping all around you, it's hard to pick out the small stuff. Don't count on hearing worms in the middle of a stampede. That said, NA would allow you to stretch your senses far beyond normal mortal means...so if things were quiet, you could hear the worms.
Likewise, you'd have an almost guaranteed chance to detect someone sneaking up on you in the middle of the desert: just not a lot moving out there. However, NA wouldn't help with this on a bustling city street.
I think my interpretation follows the theme of the Spell List well enough, and is workable.
How, then, to sneak up on the Ranger in the desert? Admittedly, it would be tricky. Anything to break Concentration helps, of course: a distracting illusion, a flock of summoned birds, tripping over an imaginary tortoise...Then again, Long Bows have great range.
-
On a related note...
The Ranger used this skill while our Mage cast a Presence x2 radius.
Very tough to surprise the group if they know what's around the corner. Just a brief round of (c) both give a glimpse of the enemy. The two can then tell the party what they detected to at least get an idea of the immediate #'s they face.
Question: Are these spells a flat radius or do they act in a sphere? Getting all presence/animate activity above ground, ground level and below is pretty powerful.
-
Providence13;
IMHO it is a sphere and it is a powerful spell, again IMHO.
MDC
-
Sphere, or else if you were on any signifigant slope the spells would be lame. . .and they are also handy for detecting foes burrowing at you, or in the ceiling. . .what you do with that info may not be 100% handy.
Hudson "3 meters, they're in the room." "Are you sure you're reading that right?"
Most of the lines after that are profanity filled, but I guess you get the gist.